[AndyYSCISOdept]

agreed , i wonder if yellowstone and pearl know how much business they lose because of their own greedy reps

lol

[AndyYSCISOdept]

Those two statements aren't mutually exclusive. You guys exist because you fill a need in the market, there's no doubt about it. But you absolutely CAN offer a "better" product to merchants, that is (at least somewhat..) transparent, lower rate, fewer junk fees, and doesn't create debt traps due to the excess margin that exists in the high risk model. Problem is, you choose not to. And that choice is ultimately going to be the difference between maximizing near term returns (which, if you've followed any of the CFPB enforcement action, may very well eventually get clawed back by the government) versus building a company that is truly sustainable.

This is very straight forward -- someone, anyone, show me mathematically how a merchant can sustain on a high risk cash advance that renews and renews, double dipping each time. Just one single example and I'll jump on the high risk bandwagon.

I have a merchant we've given funds 50+ times. If you give me a call Im happy to send you his phone number

[Cfairbank]

I have a merchant we've given funds 50+ times. If you give me a call Im happy to send you his phone number

Do you really not see the issue with this statement? Why wouldn't you (a) give him appropriately priced capital, on a risk adjusted basis, so he doesn't have to get turned over and over and over, and paying fees over and over and over; or (b) graduate him to OnDeck or elsewhere where he could access more affordable capital? And yes, that question is rhetorical, but further highlights the issue in the high risk market -- customer retention on capital that was not designed to be long term capital.

All I am looking for is support of ROI: show me the math that said he had a positive ROI on those funds. Or even simpler: what would his profit margin and/or growth rate needed to have been to just break even on those funds? All i'm looking for is a calculation, that's it. If it was all three month deals, he had to be growing (or a combination of growth and profit margin) at over 600% per year to break even.

[HDF]

and? I find that a lot of people have questions and negative comments but most f you still submit a ton of business to YSC, so which is it...are we total crooks and thieves or are we the most necessary funders out there( if you say anything other than necessary then you're lying)

Peace Rabbit Im out!

And... you front commission, you don't pay it.

And... Nobody called you crooks

And... you are not at all necessary. Quite unnecessary actually. And I ain't lying.

[FundedBROTHA]

WOW!

No one is putting a gun to these merchant's head to take YS deals.

[MCABroker]

The hate is REAL... If you're not working with Yellowstone then you're leaving money on the table. Find a good rep and you will see for yourself... Andy is the best!

[WeFundIt]

You might want to give TransMark a try. Call Jennifer Polito - 800-579-1273. They are be able to do the impossible deals. Hope this helps.

[Cfairbank]

The hate is REAL... If you're not working with Yellowstone then you're leaving money on the table. Find a good rep and you will see for yourself... Andy is the best!

These types of discussions and requests to support the viability/suitability of a product (any product, not just the YSC product) for the customer have have nothing to do with "hate" of YSC or anyone else in this space -- Isaac has clearly done a great job taking advantage of an opportunity in the market to build a relatively large company that is intended to address a specific, underserved niche in the market, and I congratulate him and his team on his success. But with that impressive growth, comes greater responsibility and a bigger target on your back -- and a heightened need to support that your product isn't predatory.

Putting the impact on merchants, the added risk stacking adds to a first position loan (not to mention the legality of it), and the increased cost of capital aside for a second, this is why you should care about the YSC product and their position in the market. Regardless of my view, your view, or the view of anyone else on this forum's of the YSC product, think about this: what impact does it's product (especially at their size and the relatively frequent video publications that can make an outsider view this space like just a bunch of 90s stock brokers with cash being generated out hand over fist) have on the long term viability of the ENTIRE space? I am closely involved on the regulatory side, and there still is a lot of confusion between different types of products, and thats a big problem. If the CFPB (or whoever is the ulimtate regulator), decides there is no need to differentiate between what OnDeck is offering compared to a confusing, stacked 3 month 1.45x with 10% in junk fees, this space will get shut down. I am confident this won't happen because the difference, to me at least, should be so obvious, but that doesn't mean it's not a real threat. There are many CDFIs that would love to see all forms of alternative finance go away (and many are very vocal to that point) and are likely jumping for joy whenever they access a high risk contract -- and they are using a lot of the high risk advances to show how "egregious" and "predatory" the whole space is. Look at the Opportunity Fund's report on this space if you haven't yet. YSC is big enough and not hiding their product or success, and that should make all market participants nervous. If companies can't support that they are in fact offering a non-predatory / viable product, it's a problem, especially when a company is the size of YSC. And this is a risk that would impact everybody on this forum -- the difference between what OnDeck is offering and a high risk product is massive, but there's no guarantee that folks are able or willing to differentiate.

This is why I keep pushing people to support (mathematically) your product and asking questions -- I firmly believe you can offer a non-predatory "high risk" product, and that companies can really build a sustainable business while still generating great returns for their shareholders. But folks that don't listen now won't be around when the dust settles, that's a fact.

[anonymous]

YSC is one of the most "necessary" funders out there to those who are unable to adequately do their job. At the end of the day, we find the most suitable capital provider for businesses who are seeking capital - "brokering" a transaction. If as a broker, you need to send your file to another (better) broker to get it approved, you are pathetic and have no business doing this for a living. Furthermore, you are just adding in additional fees to a product that is already under scrutiny to begin with. That said, YSC does have in-house funds (as everyone knows) and without the fees, coming from Andy, the offers (for those merchants, given qualifications) are strong to very strong. So it is tough to label them as good or bad, as there are several aspects to their business. Again, barrier for entry would eliminate co-brokering (for the most part). Not going to comment on debt traps as that isn't going anywhere on this thread. But if you wipe away all the fees and bad press, there is legitimate value in YSC.

[Cfairbank]

YSC is one of the most "necessary" funders out there to those who are unable to adequately do their job. At the end of the day, we find the most suitable capital provider for businesses who are seeking capital - "brokering" a transaction. If as a broker, you need to send your file to another (better) broker to get it approved, you are pathetic and have no business doing this for a living. Furthermore, you are just adding in additional fees to a product that is already under scrutiny to begin with. That said, YSC does have in-house funds (as everyone knows) and without the fees, coming from Andy, the offers (for those merchants, given qualifications) are strong to very strong. So it is tough to label them as good or bad, as there are several aspects to their business. Again, barrier for entry would eliminate co-brokering (for the most part). Not going to comment on debt traps as that isn't going anywhere on this thread. But if you wipe away all the fees and bad press, there is legitimate value in YSC.

You can't ignore the debt traps because that is the battle everyone in any "high cost" space needs to defend. If you read any of my entries, there is at least one point that is constant: taking Yellowstone or any other expensive product ONCE is not, nor will it ever be, a "problem" -- they can support a fantastic segment of the market that way. It's the part of the argument you are looking to ignore that is going to create the problem for them and many others.

[anonymous]

You can't ignore the debt traps because that is the battle everyone in any "high cost" space needs to defend. If you read any of my entries, there is at least one point that is constant: taking Yellowstone or any other expensive product ONCE is not, nor will it ever be, a "problem" -- they can support a fantastic segment of the market that way. It's the part of the argument you are looking to ignore that is going to create the problem for them and many others.

I'm not looking to ignore it in the least bit, just don't think you'll get the answers you're looking for out of this thread. And if you didn't (with the time and effort put into the posts/examples), I don't think I'm getting anywhere. So rather ravaging the same topic to no avail, thought it might be a good idea to highlight a couple other points. I DO NOT disagree with you at all Carl.

...in fact, I reached out to do business with you about a month or so back after following your posts for a while. Never heard anything back. ....dick lol

[Cfairbank]

I'm not looking to ignore it in the least bit, just don't think you'll get the answers you're looking for out of this thread. And if you didn't (with the time and effort put into the posts/examples), I don't think I'm getting anywhere. So rather ravaging the same topic to no avail, thought it might be a good idea to highlight a couple other points. I DO NOT disagree with you at all Carl.

...in fact, I reached out to do business with you about a month or so back after following your posts for a while. Never heard anything back. ....dick lol

Fair enough... my fault, I misunderstood you intention and do appreciate and understand your points. In general, all I'm asking for is for folks to clean up their products, do sufficient underwriting and math to ensure the product is not likely to destroy a business, and try to offer the best product they can. It benefits everyone in the space, not just the lender/cash advance company that cleans up their product.

To your second point, that would be very bizarre if you didn't get a response from us, my sales guys are very responsive. ssafirstein@breakoutfinance.com heads up the group. direct dial 703-852-6013. My sincerest apologies, I will see what happened.

[mcaguru]

Carl you are right on time with concerns for Small business USA. Its so much of a conversation NOT just in this forum! it made its way into almost evrey campaign speece rally how Small Business Owners are struggling under policy and practices and believe government regulation is # 1 issues harming the Small business community!

https://www.aei.org/publication/regu...ess-formation/

[HDF]

Carl you are right on time with concerns for Small business USA. Its so much of a conversation NOT just in this forum! it made its way into almost evrey campaign speece rally how Small Business Owners are struggling under policy and practices and believe government regulation is # 1 issues harming the Small business community!

https://www.aei.org/publication/regu...ess-formation/

Love how you edit your posts to clean them up and they still read like a 3rd grader wrote it on a bus on a rocky road.

Or you are overheated and dehydrated with pneumonia...

[mcaguru]

Love how you edit your posts to clean them up and they still read like a 3rd grader wrote it on a bus on a rocky road.

Or you are overheated and dehydrated with pneumonia...

My mom says first grade. You are a real mensch for the compliment.