[Eric S]

If you do your job right, your merchant won't need to stack. Learn how to place your deals.

[achcash]

Haters gonna hate. Grasshoppers are here to stay

[GoodCustomerService]

These conversations kill me. It's always the fault of the funding company doing the stacking and never the broker or the merchants fault. Who forces the merchants hand? Not the stacker making the offer. The stacker didn't ask the merchant to fill out an app, submit it with paperwork, sign off on a contract, take the funds into their account, etc. Don't throw blame in one direction. What drives me crazy is how everyone here blames Pearl for their troubles when there are at least 10 other stacking companies that consistently advertise or post on this forum. What are their opinions on these threads? You know who you are. Chime in.

[achcash]

I find that I am competing with stackers more and more... I had a deal come in where the merchant had an MCA balance. The merchant stated he didn't want it paid off, he just wanted more funds added on. He said he had an offer for a loan stack and he wanted one from me. I was able to educate him on the hazards of accepting loan stacks. Not only is it prohibited by his current MCA provider, but it will most certainly damage his future borrowing power and his reputation. Thankfully he understood the bigger picture and took my advice to simply payoff his mca and allow me to provide a larger one..

I don't understand how you sleep at night telling merchants a full refi is a better deal than a grasshopper. At lease I give merchants options for a cheaper alternative through a 2nd position. Simple math. Run the numbers, you'd be surprised

[achcash]

Absolutely.

You must be new to the biz. Welcome. And good luck

[CO1]

Back in the day, no one stepped foot into anyone else's deal. The balance had to be at 50% in order to do a new deal and the merchants knew this bit they would wait till there balance was even lower in order to secure financing. But Stacking only started appearing when people from outside the industry heard about high roi and inside salesmen were feeling greedy because they didn't get enough on commission an gathered a couple of there boys, family an went in head first, an of course processors took advantage as well with hidden fee's with statement fees of 20$ for a print out! This industry is filled of greedy little people, don't get me wrong, I have stacked a couple of times myself, but was I proud of it, no, because in the long run maybe I could have funded the guy an average 3.5 times now the odds are 1.5 an as the industry grows stacking will only get worse an in my opinion will make the industry fail, even if we are the market now. .an the only reason we are is because banks are still in the industry lending money to the big guys, an than we sell from bank, to funder, to underwriter, to merchant. An banks are happy because they still are making money. An as for the merchant I have only probably seen a handful get to the next level with the money we give, double dipping, stacking. It was all about ethics and morals now its how to make the fastest and easiest way.

[MCA Pioneer]

Stacking, in my view, is very similar to a 2nd mortgage ... a smaller funded amount at a higher rate IF THE MATH MAKES SENSE. There is too much hysteria about this issue dating back years ago during my days as a Director at Advanceme. If one additional funding is added to a customer's overall debit load and the combined payments are an est. 17% or less of the average deposit volume, then it can make sense in many cases. The problem is when funders over-extend the customer with high payments and fees clearly placing the first pos deal at risk as well as their own second. I have long considered creating an association whereby one of the functions is to create "best practices" and see what percentage of the industry members might follow some sort of a formula to more appropriately apply second pos deals to a merchant.

Can you imagine if many of the first position mortgage companies demanded that their borrowers never obtain a second mortgage? They would be laughed at, and frankly that should be the attitude toward Advanceme, On Deck, Principis, and others when they demand to be the only funder in the mix. Again, it is about math and responsible funding.

This from Bob Gaskin, going into my 15th year in this industry and formerly a Director at Advanceme and the creator of the AMI Telesales Dept.

[MCA Pioneer]

Incidentally, my fairly new high risk funding company - Superior Capital - will stack only when appropriate and only with a second. We fund nearly any industry to include attorneys, CPAs, online businesses, home-based situations, and more. We also pay commissions within 4 business hours, can approve files with open tax liens and a FICO down to zero.

Call today for an ISO package and work with the most experienced in the business and get paid the fastest with Superior Capital.

[CO1]

If the ExDirector of AdvanceMe says its fine. . I just say wow.

[jbrown]

Bob, you know better. 17% of total deposits? How many transactions did CAN/AMI do in all your years there? What does their data show about the maximum revenue split and the correlation to loss?

We all know that merchants mostly max out on a deal with the first position funder. Stacking is a short term game and not sustainable for most merchants.

All this blather about "2nd mortgages" overlooks the fact that mortgage lending is a REGULATED industry and there are strict guidelines about debt/income ratios in mortgage lending.

[achcash]

All this blather about "2nd mortgages" overlooks the fact that mortgage lending is a REGULATED industry and there are strict guidelines about debt/income ratios in mortgage lending.

And when Mastercard approves someone for a personal credit card, Amex, Visa and the rest don't come like hungry animals to give them more credit(regulated or not). Ye ok. It's a survival of the fittest game in a highly competitive industry. Anyone who is against stacking, like Jeremy Brown's company, I would bet heavily that is only b/c their credit facility doesn't allow them to do it.

[HeatherF]

I do not believe Stacking is an acceptable procedure and we do not provide 1st and 2nd placements... and it is not because our credit facility does not allow us to as we are not backed by any bank. Being in the decline space/ or starter niche (whatever term is used) we see the clients that trickle down to us because they have stacked and now most funders will not consider them for financial options. There are few and I mean on the rare occasions that have positive balances. The main thing we hear from the agents is the merchant wants to consolidate it all because they can't handle it. I know people say that if done correctly and the profit margins are there the merchant can handle it but people are operating without set rules and guidelines (aahem..regulations) and doing as they see fit. My feeling and statement on it is such "Once a merchant stacks they are never again in the black"- it's true because it rhymes of course.

[JayBallentine]

The main thing we hear from the agents is the merchant wants to consolidate it all because they can't handle it. I know people say that if done correctly and the profit margins are there the merchant can handle it but people are operating without set rules and guidelines (aahem..regulations) and doing as they see fit. My feeling and statement on it is such "Once a merchant stacks they are never again in the black"- it's true because it rhymes of course.

A lot of solid points here. Ultimately, most businesses you stay in the "stack" cycle are forced to close their doors. We can do better.

[cashguy]

This guy Jay talking all these thing over this board. One day marketing the next doing paperless submissions the next whatever that crap was on Amazon now all of the sudden he thinks he is the know all about how business perform or underwrites. What have you actually done in this business.

Your agenda is to bash the industry and have people come to your nonsense site that is a gimmick calculator. Won't work you will fail like you have all over this forum/industry.

[MCNetwork]

Ouch. Pretty harsh.

[JayBallentine]

This guy Jay talking all these thing over this board. One day marketing the next doing paperless submissions the next whatever that crap was on Amazon now all of the sudden he thinks he is the know all about how business perform or underwrites. What have you actually done in this business.

Your agenda is to bash the industry and have people come to your nonsense site that is a gimmick calculator. Won't work you will fail like you have all over this forum/industry.

Whats your name sir? Great to meet you.

In 2009 - as some here may be able to attest to, I'd made a futile attempt at addressing the problems as I see them... I failed. Most startups / 1st timers do. Eventually, I came back NOT to be a marketing consultant rather because there was a simple little widget I had that I thought would add value to folks regardless of the vertical. Incidentally I chose to start here... If you are on the phone with your internet leads in 20 seconds or less, you'll make more money. That's what I was offering.

While the tool was "useful" my mistake was in not realizing that it was a commodity and not something that people were feeling "pain about." So, I ended up doing a bunch of videos for guys, some consulting, etc.

Some people have made good money based on the stuff I have shared freely here. I've been happy to give. However, unfortunately most folks in this business have sought to aggressively "take from me." I find it weird that folks will reach out to me for help then get literally mad that it doesn't come a "rock bottom" prices. I've worked and suffered to acquire this knowledge, can't afford to give it away. I had a client I helped actually profit from my work and then tell someone else that "I was a bust... waste of money."

I began scratching my head... Then, I realized that as the market for the product expands, the same folks who were trying to use me will be the ones engineering the loss of jobs and the shut down of businesses on a massive scale. There are guys coming in from PayDay lending who specifically are looking to "stack."

Releasing my "book" was another fortuitous event. I learned that I was being a coward. Releasing the book was a way for me to showcase the fact that I honestly feel that I am the best merchant cash advance marketer in the world. The goal was to get consulting clients. Given THIS particular vertical - that would have proven to be a gigantic waste of time. When I shipped the preview release, I knew instantly that releasing the full piece was out of the question. So... I figured, I'd just aggregate and sell leads. Doing that would have been selling out.

I'm more risk averse than I have been in the past - so I "swore" I'd just not do a startup, make money, and blow it all angel investing in tech startups. Then I had some conversations with some people... here we are.

"Paperless submissions" are necessary and we'll certainly add that to our funnel to make it easier for folks to access funding quickly. You're referencing the time when there was a consideration to working with Funders Cloud. Here's the secret about MCA - one secret I think that holds some guys back. It's an all out every man for him or herself war out there.

The Calculator

It is fun to work on. We know people have 0 attention spans so we had to figure out the easiest 2 or 3 questions we could ask to render a powerful result. 5 people and about 40 hours later... This is only the beginning. We'll definitely continue to iterate on it and so the product will have "new branches." We're also working on a study which will show the effects of stacking and the rate to which it puts businesses under. To help that study gain visibility we are building an app that will allow you to simply enter a given city and see some stats on that city with regard to stacking.

If you are willing to bet that will fail at helping merchants get faster, cheaper, and more profitable merchant cash advances, then I'd encourage you to re-consider your position.

Look around you... No one has the merchants back. If not us then who? If not now, then when?

Stacking is GREAT for business. Stacking is BAD for America. Jobs are on the line here.

Do you disagree?

[JayBallentine]

By the way... I had a meeting recently where this exact quote was said; "Merchants are scumbags." In light of your comments regarding our potential failure; what do you make of that quote?

[funding pro]

Bob, you know better. 17% of total deposits? How many transactions did CAN/AMI do in all your years there? What does their data show about the maximum revenue split and the correlation to loss?

We all know that merchants mostly max out on a deal with the first position funder. Stacking is a short term game and not sustainable for most merchants.

All this blather about "2nd mortgages" overlooks the fact that mortgage lending is a REGULATED industry and there are strict guidelines about debt/income ratios in mortgage lending.

Why even bother??? At this point it appears there are two groups of people in this industry. Folks that still think it is 2007, where we are providing financing to sub-prime business owners only and can say whatever they have to say so they can sleep better at night and then there are people doing meaningful business that see the big picture. As far as I am concerned its good vs evil and the line has been drawn. Sounds overdramatic just writing it out, but facts are facts. Opportunistic is just another way of calling someone greedy. Responsible stacking is an oxymoron. The responsible thing to do is educate, advise and implement the best strategy for the business owner. Not calling a UCC lead that was filed in the last 30 days to tell them you can get them funded on top of their advance, that it is "ok" and doesn't breach their current agreement and that everything will be fine since you've done it 1000 times before. All you can do is hope that as things continue to progress as they have and higher quality applicants continue to flood the marketplace the bottom end will continue to trickle out and take these folks with them. I cant see things going well when On Deck is doing a 24 month deal and 3 months in the business owner has 5 advances in place and wont qualify for a renewal for another 12 months...

[MCNetwork]

Yep you hit the nail in the head. It's good versus evil and evil outnumbers good 10 to 1! There are too many new Funders sprouting up that specialize in stacking. These firms set up a call center with 10-20 minimum wage sales reps and they utilize state of the art dialers that enable each rep to make up to 900 dials per day. And who do you think all these reps are calling? You got it! UCC lists. So the cycle works like this: 1) Reputable funders who are against stacking (aka the "good guys") spend a ton on marketing to acquire new, fresh merchants and fund them. 2) These merchants end up on a UCC list. 3) Stacking funders (aka the evil empire or "bad guys") purchase brand new UCC lists with fresh merchants on them and aggressively call them and entice them to stack. 4) Rinse and repeat.

So a lot of good merchants end up going bad and the "good guys" are left holding the bag. The bottom end will not trickle out until only good merchants are left because the good merchants will end up stacking as well. Let's face it, a merchant who is willing to pay the high factors in our industry is already on the ledge financially. It doesn't take much prodding to convince them to take additional funds. The way I see it, pretty soon about 50-60% of ALL merchants will have stacks in place. The only defense a "good guy" funder has against this poaching is to not file a UCC or use various UCC aliases. Maybe we'll start to see more prominent anti-stacking clauses in funding contracts with associated penalties (although they're not legally enforceable). "Good guy" funders just have to do a better job of educating their customers about the perils of stacking.

As long as stacking companies continue to make obscene amounts of money (and believe me, they are much more profitable than the "good guy" funders) and in the absence of any real regulation in the MCA space, then the "evil empire" will most likely prevail.

[Ryan Shiroky]

This guy Jay talking all these thing over this board. One day marketing the next doing paperless submissions the next whatever that crap was on Amazon now all of the sudden he thinks he is the know all about how business perform or underwrites. What have you actually done in this business.

Your agenda is to bash the industry and have people come to your nonsense site that is a gimmick calculator. Won't work you will fail like you have all over this forum/industry.

That aint the half of the arrogance either... I dropped this guy a line to board with us here at AmeriMerchant, to do MORE business... I am inside sales, but I run with a few ISOs as well... THIS guy, lol, hit me with some "Have your CEO call me" B.S. with his nose in the air... Yea, OK, cause he's gonna waist the time hes using to secure ridiculous amounts of money to talk to Jay... lol this guy kills me...

[Ryan Shiroky]

The bottom line... what it all boils down to... the only thing that is going to stop the Pearls of the world... is regulation... and thats when the commission runs get lite and the rates get low low and when "high risk" dies because it doesnt make sense to give a guy with a 482 FICO a 1.16 over 10 months... Stacking is going to seriously hurt this industry and it's going to happen... like it or not...

[Chambo]

My, My....what has happened to the tone of these boards? Sounds like a lot of jealous-laced feces being flung around like a bunch of wild monkeys. Everyone yelling and screaming and making no points...or good sense

[admin]

Yeah, let's please not attack members personally guys. We will have to delete posts if they cross the line.

[cashmaster]

Admin. Why was the proof that got posted about Isaac Stern stacking on the banks that fund his deals removed ? I believe stern should be exposed as the hypocrite he is. Isn't this board about discussions ? Unless. Stern has a equity stake in the DF? It seems Stern gets to use this board to boast about all the cash YSC makes - and kiss the ass's of all the banks he stacks on - Stern more proof will follow and of course it will be taken down.

[isaacdstern]

Cashmaster-best of luck to you out there...not sure why you hate me so much....did I do something to you personally?