[MCNetwork]

Those are solid points JSL23. Many agents build their businesses that way. There's nothing wrong with the meet and greet approach to networking. It all depends on what your personal preference is. There are agents who are equally successful with the 100% telemarketing approach or the "feet on the street" approach. You can also incorporate both approaches in your style. Personally, I find that the feet on the street approach is more effective in selling credit card services than merchant cash advances IMHO.

[AndyYSCISOdept]

I agree MCN, I have found that a hybrid of styles has always worked best for me. It wasn't always that way, I started out doing "smile and dial" and it was working but when I started adding "meet & greet" I really ramped up my numbers. But, again it all comes down to personal preference and what works best with your skill set.

[JSL23]

Andy-I agree. I am all about mixing it up, that was part of the point I was trying to make I guess. For the most part, I just pick up the phone. I just think the days of making 400 calls through an automated dialer are over.

Anyway, I know this discussion was about stacking and I wasn't trying to get off topic, I'm just saying if the Lenders improve the culture there will be a lot less stacking and we will penetrate more of the Small Business market.

[MCNetwork]

Lenders will follow the money and as long as stacking is a profitable activity, many lenders will continue to do it. Trying to "improve the culture" is a noble goal but it's not realistic.

[AndyYSCISOdept]

Lenders will follow the money and as long as stacking is a profitable activity, many lenders will continue to do it. Trying to "improve the culture" is a noble goal but it's not realistic.

I think that's exactly the problem. People give up attempting to change the industry and its messed up practices because it's to hard and it continues to be profitable. The issue i have is this, when does something that is profitable become a toxic idea that we should ALL walk away from? I think that answer has arrived in the form of "stacking madness" we have created a monster that will be, admittedly, difficult to put back iin the box. But does that mean that it isnt worth the effort?

[MCNetwork]

When the stackers start getting sued by the largest funders because the stacks cause merchants to default on the primary advances, then you'll start seeing real changes in the industry.

[Mmarano]

When the stackers start getting sued by the largest funders because the stacks cause merchants to default on the primary advances, then you'll start seeing real changes in the industry.

Its very difficult to prove that the layered advance is the Entire cause for the merchant going out of business.(Prove in court) Large funding companies to sue the small stackers- I know quite a few "small" stack type companies that have tons and tons of capital. Capital by the truck load.

So to say that a company is going to sue... they may not win that case.. if they don't win that case.. they become a laughing stock. You can't really underestimate your fellows in this business or the legal teams they have and backers they may have. Everyone looses when things go to court. I highly doubt anyone at the top of a Funding company wants to throw good money after bad. When discussing legal cases we obviously know about AMI and what happened in the state of California- AMI, now Can, cut a big check- they have 500MM out of Utah... business as usual for them these days- that company keeps growing-

I think of another Legal case that took place- AMI back in the day went after Ameri Merchant for offering Credit Card Based advances. Ami tried to take hold and say they have a patent on that style of lending. AMI lost that fight to a much "smaller" company.

Point is, Legal does not make sense for anyone in this situation. Oh and by the way- Everyone Knows it.

[mcaguru]

With all Due Respect Mr Brown -please see below.

[mcaguru]

Funny you should say that. Before I posted this, I was contacted by, and I am scheduled to speak with someone next week in this department:

Division of Consumer and Community Affairs
Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System

With all Due Respect Mr Brown -
The Big Bankers are saying the exact same thing about Rapid and Ondeck and the other A paper Funders. would love you to release to the forum the percent of your merchants you funded in 2007 are still in business?? its funny how you say your invited to come speak at some departmentivision of Consumer and Community Affairs
Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System After all don't you think the large banks would make the exact same case to a federal board about Rapid and New Logic hurting the merchant.
Now back to the fact that a large Number of your 2007 merchants are no longer in business, Would you not be like the Stacker to that bankrupts merchants landlord and American express Cards that he defaulted on?? how about the employees and the families that worked at all your merchants you funded in 2007-8 that are out of a job...please don't feel good about your practice by knocking the stackers!

[funding pro]

With all Due Respect Mr Brown -
The Big Bankers are saying the exact same thing about Rapid and Ondeck and the other A paper Funders. would love you to release to the forum the percent of your merchants you funded in 2007 are still in business?? its funny how you say your invited to come speak at some departmentivision of Consumer and Community Affairs
Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System After all don't you think the large banks would make the exact same case to a federal board about Rapid and New Logic hurting the merchant.
Now back to the fact that a large Number of your 2007 merchants are no longer in business, Would you not be like the Stacker to that bankrupts merchants landlord and American express Cards that he defaulted on?? how about the employees and the families that worked at all your merchants you funded in 2007-8 that are out of a job...please don't feel good about your practice by knocking the stackers!

I don't think you are completely wrong with the argument you are making about cash advance companies funding behind a traditional loan, but there are a few things you need to realize are different. First, a traditional loan is typically secured against a piece of collateral that protects the lender. If I were to take a loan against my home or a piece of equipment equal to the value, I cannot go out and get another loan against that same thing that I no longer have any equity in. The terms of the loan may state that I cannot receive additional debt which is where you are partly correct in comparing the two.

A cash advance in the traditional sense is a purchase of revenue. When someone secures a right to receive a percentage of that revenue, and in contract is not allowed to sell their revenue to anyone else, you fall into a different situation than when you look at more traditional types of financing.

I think the main difference though, is that when the first position funders are financing these businesses, they are taking into consideration the existing debt on the business and calculating what that business can reasonably afford to pay back without putting them in a compromising position with their other lenders, payroll, taxes, etc. Does work every time? No. But the model is built to work across the spectrum for the most part. Not to generalize all of the "stackers" but it appears to me that for the most part, they are financing businesses with no regard for what they can and cannot reasonably afford to pay back to them, the other funding companies and other forms of debt while maintaining the ability to operate their business for the long run.

Just my two cents.

[Regium]

Stacking is the only reason I believe this industry needs to have regulations in place... It's getting out of control

[Xasharyp]

1.90 whoaa

[AndyYSCISOdept]

I think that we have a lot of good points being made here, but if I may can I ask everyone to kind of sum up what each person thinks the best solution(s) are so that we can get a clearer idea of how "we" (the people in the trenches making money) can really affect change.

Is that possible or am I pissin in the wind?

[mcaguru]

Successfully stopping stacking would be like the American Landlord Association coming together banging fists on the desks of the fed regulatory board (as someone suggested) claiming that the MCA industry has to stop because when the merchants/tenants takes 1.30-1.48-capital they become a liability to be reliable paying tenants. both have same shot at success....BTW keep in mind the Payday Loan industry destroys families like the crack/cocaine epidemic (dads check never makes it to the grocery for milk for the 2-4 year olds at home) yet ""LISTEN UP"" Thirty-Two States Authorize High-Cost Payday Lending
Thirty-two states enacted safe harbor legislation for payday lenders and permit loans based on checks written on consumers' bank accounts at triple digit interest rates, or with no rate cap at all. 100's of millions have been spent of stopping the day day loans and that's consumer based and NADA has taken place with a liberal president at the helm... stacking (Ihate the term lets call it additional borrowing!!)...

[cashguy]

Interesting

[AndyYSCISOdept]

Ive always been partial to "Grasshopper Deals"

If you don't know about the devastating effect of the Grasshopper please google it....It sucks the lifeblood of plants and the eco system...(siund familiar?)

[MCNetwork]

Aren't you criticizing your own company?? Hope the boss doesn't find out!

[Mmarano]

Ive always been partial to "Grasshopper Deals"

If you don't know about the devastating effect of the Grasshopper please google it....It sucks the lifeblood of plants and the eco system...(siund familiar?)

and how many G-hop's did i fund for you in the past????

[Mmarano]

Successfully stopping stacking would be like the American Landlord Association coming together banging fists on the desks of the fed regulatory board (as someone suggested) claiming that the MCA industry has to stop because when the merchants/tenants takes 1.30-1.48-capital they become a liability to be reliable paying tenants. both have same shot at success....BTW keep in mind the Payday Loan industry destroys families like the crack/cocaine epidemic (dads check never makes it to the grocery for milk for the 2-4 year olds at home) yet ""LISTEN UP"" Thirty-Two States Authorize High-Cost Payday Lending
Thirty-two states enacted safe harbor legislation for payday lenders and permit loans based on checks written on consumers' bank accounts at triple digit interest rates, or with no rate cap at all. 100's of millions have been spent of stopping the day day loans and that's consumer based and NADA has taken place with a liberal president at the helm... stacking (Ihate the term lets call it additional borrowing!!)...

Mca Guru- this is the first time you've said anything on this forum that has made some sense. Amen.

[mcaguru]

Andrew -
see below

[mcaguru]

Ive always been partial to "Grasshopper Deals"

If you don't know about the devastating effect of the Grasshopper please google it....It sucks the lifeblood of plants and the eco system...(siund familiar?)

Andrew -
I don't know you but if that's how you view Yellowstone and the grasshopper practice of funding as "Bloodsucking Merchants"!!! When the Classification Law Firms come after Yellowstone (representing 5000 merchants--i can see the ads in my mind--have you taken a yellowstone advance) your bloodsucking POST is GOING to be EXHIBIT A!!! lawyers will earn yearly salaries off your post.

[Chambo]

Successfully stopping stacking would be like the American Landlord Association coming together banging fists on the desks of the fed regulatory board (as someone suggested) claiming that the MCA industry has to stop because when the merchants/tenants takes 1.30-1.48-capital they become a liability to be reliable paying tenants. both have same shot at success....BTW keep in mind the Payday Loan industry destroys families like the crack/cocaine epidemic (dads check never makes it to the grocery for milk for the 2-4 year olds at home) yet ""LISTEN UP"" Thirty-Two States Authorize High-Cost Payday Lending
Thirty-two states enacted safe harbor legislation for payday lenders and permit loans based on checks written on consumers' bank accounts at triple digit interest rates, or with no rate cap at all. 100's of millions have been spent of stopping the day day loans and that's consumer based and NADA has taken place with a liberal president at the helm... stacking (Ihate the term lets call it additional borrowing!!)...

but you cannot stack multiple payday loans. It is deemed Predatory

[cashguy]

Chambo where did you get this idea

[Regium]

Isn't YS the most common "Grasshopper" in the industry?

Rapid - $57k, 8 month MCA
WBL - $60k daily ach, 1.90/12 months
WG - $15k daily ach, 1.42/12 weeks
Yellowstone - $10k daily ach, 1.45/10 weeks

Not sure if this example was in chronological order of advances given, but I'm sure YS indeed went 4th position... (not that 2nd or 3rd is any better, but 4th???? )

[JSL23]

Isn't YS the most common "Grasshopper" in the industry?



Not sure if this example was in chronological order of advances given, but I'm sure YS indeed went 4th position... (not that 2nd or 3rd is any better, but 4th???? )

I just can't get over the 1.90! That's rough $114,000 payback. The merchant probably needed the 3rd and 4th simply to have some money after paying that daily for a year!