[FUNd]

OK, now that the NFL games are over and it's time to get back down to business, I have a question.

What's up with the liars in this industry?

I'm specifically talking about ISOs claiming to be everything that they are not.

I consistently win deals by blowing doors on brokers claiming to be lenders. Why lie? Do you really think that the prospect isn't going to find out you aren't who you say you are. When you send over documents that don't have your name at the top, your cover is blown, and I win, for telling the truth in the first place. Clients value truth far more than they value where your money comes from.

I see ISOs giving fake (poorly made) PDF approvals to unqualified prospects just to collect a "processing fee", that when sent, disappear along with the fake approval, making the ISO money for doing nothing more than flat out lying to a desperate prospect. When the prospect doesn't get the loan they paid the processing fee for, it's usually a shell game where the ISO tells them the application was inaccurate (therefore forfeiting their advance money) or they slow roll the client until they go away. I want to name names so badly here, but I'm biding my time until I can legally crush these bugs without repercussion.

Just this weekend, another ISO posting on here with zero search engine presence claiming on their website in a box website that they were seen on CNN and FOX News, I mean, really?

Just sick of the lying. If you are the 'salesman' (or woman) you say you are, sell, and compete, without having to be a general scumbag.

People aren't stupid. And if you run up against me on the field, rest assured I'm going to lay you out like a sack of potatoes with my experience if you are claiming to be something you're not.

Have a productive week.

[dpFund]

The scumbag liars hurt every honest person in our industry that is trying to make a living. Within the legal limits, I have no issue of exposing any liar I run across, whether it be a client, broker or lender.

[WhoisKingsley]

Same. Then they get mad when you call them out. Ever check out any websites with the fake links and associations that they aren't linked to? I have so many merchants who come to me with the craziest stories.

[brokerCompany]

It is in all industries and government and life.
In other finance industries I have seen it with large money in millions pretend lenders charging 20k -30k upfront and then gone! Politicians and POTUS lie. You have to be keenly aware of who you are dealing with

[WhoisKingsley]

This industry is by far the worst I've ever seen. Many people don't know what I try to do and that is help those brokers that do right by their merchant (ongoing relationships and offer more than just MCAs) be able to stand and be profitable and not get their business stolen from people who only see "commissions" rather than keeping their brand reputable.

What's really crazy is that I've "partnered" or collaborated with some senior people that claim to have the same mission. It's get so far and I usually call out BS and cut ties because no matter the industry- I am not going to build anything on lies. There are certain things, SIMPLE things that can be done in the industry to better the merchant experience and bring some positive character and practices to those who do things correct.

Unfortunately, instead of thinking "how can I innovate and have longevity in this" - people say "screw whoever- they'll screw me first- let me get them first".

We work in a community of people who complain and want something better- but don't do anything about it. We sit next to those who are backdooring and making up rules as they go or basing rules on certain people they work with because of incompetence or just because they are easier to "screw over". We're now in a critical time where every aspect is realizing EVERYTHING. There is no trade secret other than your underwriting box and/or credit analysis.

We are sickly overcrowded with logos and names and a spokesperson or fancy website can't make up for the crap that going on behind closed doors.

[Michael I]

tantrum.jpg
every industry has scumbags , be better and win business the honest way

[AndyYSCISOdept]

This industry is by far the worst I've ever seen. Many people don't know what I try to do and that is help those brokers that do right by their merchant (ongoing relationships and offer more than just MCAs) be able to stand and be profitable and not get their business stolen from people who only see "commissions" rather than keeping their brand reputable.

What's really crazy is that I've "partnered" or collaborated with some senior people that claim to have the same mission. It's get so far and I usually call out BS and cut ties because no matter the industry- I am not going to build anything on lies. There are certain things, SIMPLE things that can be done in the industry to better the merchant experience and bring some positive character and practices to those who do things correct.

Unfortunately, instead of thinking "how can I innovate and have longevity in this" - people say "screw whoever- they'll screw me first- let me get them first".

We work in a community of people who complain and want something better- but don't do anything about it. We sit next to those who are backdooring and making up rules as they go or basing rules on certain people they work with because of incompetence or just because they are easier to "screw over". We're now in a critical time where every aspect is realizing EVERYTHING. There is no trade secret other than your underwriting box and/or credit analysis.

We are sickly overcrowded with logos and names and a spokesperson or fancy website can't make up for the crap that going on behind closed doors.

I appreciate your passion and fire Amanda, but you claim no one is doing anything? So I'd like to hear from you real solutions. My question is, "What would you do to change the industry?"
Its one thing to call someone out, but it solves NOTHING, it is entirely different when you offer a remedy. The floor is yours because your passion tells me you have put some thought into how the industry can be better.

[AndyYSCISOdept]

And FUNd you should know better than to write 1500 words about scumbags and then dangle a carrot without letting all of us get a bite...so either give me the carrot or name names or...you know...

I want change as much as the next man or woman but the thing I hate worse than no one doing anything to change is talking about change and STILL DOING NOTHING.

[WhoisKingsley]

Andy... I have. I have pages upon pages, a network ready to go, and a whole model. Unfortunately- I've learned my lesson on giving my ideas out for free for someone to take it and use it backwards. I am actively looking for a partner to help grow this and I have no doubt that it will change things. Those who know me and have went over details know and support it.

[WhoisKingsley]

Ps- I know there are companies doing their own individual things to help and Fundry is def. one of them as everyone can see. But collectively... We have a lot of work to do

[Collection Specialist]

This industry is by far the worst I've ever seen. Many people don't know what I try to do and that is help those brokers that do right by their merchant (ongoing relationships and offer more than just MCAs) be able to stand and be profitable and not get their business stolen from people who only see "commissions" rather than keeping their brand reputable.

What's really crazy is that I've "partnered" or collaborated with some senior people that claim to have the same mission. It's get so far and I usually call out BS and cut ties because no matter the industry- I am not going to build anything on lies. There are certain things, SIMPLE things that can be done in the industry to better the merchant experience and bring some positive character and practices to those who do things correct.

Unfortunately, instead of thinking "how can I innovate and have longevity in this" - people say "screw whoever- they'll screw me first- let me get them first".

We work in a community of people who complain and want something better- but don't do anything about it. We sit next to those who are backdooring and making up rules as they go or basing rules on certain people they work with because of incompetence or just because they are easier to "screw over". We're now in a critical time where every aspect is realizing EVERYTHING. There is no trade secret other than your underwriting box and/or credit analysis.

We are sickly overcrowded with logos and names and a spokesperson or fancy website can't make up for the crap that going on behind closed doors.

I think the real problem apart from the misrepresentation is that these brokers actually lose money by trying to up-sell an already high rate and charge a 1.59. I have no problem with making money but The Gordon Gekko's of the industry are abound. I can't speak for all ISO's of course but as I deal with a lot of lenders directly I find many circumstances where a defaulted merchant is going to an ISO looking for funds, obtains a payoff letter from our office, but then unbelievably, the ISO proceeds to doctor it (to state the balance is at zero) in order to get the advance for the merchant. I am dealing with a similar situation now both on the ISO and the lenders side. I get it if a merchant who is shady to begin with tries it, but an ISO? Do they not realize that they have to sustain a relationship with the lenders themselves and doctoring documents I don't think is the best way.

[Michael I]

I think the real problem apart from the misrepresentation is that these brokers actually lose money by trying to up-sell an already high rate and charge a 1.59. I have no problem with making money but The Gordon Gekko's of the industry are abound. I can't speak for all ISO's of course but as I deal with a lot of lenders directly I find many circumstances where a defaulted merchant is going to an ISO looking for funds, obtains a payoff letter from our office, but then unbelievably, the ISO proceeds to doctor it (to state the balance is at zero) in order to get the advance for the merchant. I am dealing with a similar situation now both on the ISO and the lenders side. I get it if a merchant who is shady to begin with tries it, but an ISO? Do they not realize that they have to sustain a relationship with the lenders themselves and doctoring documents I don't think is the best way.

now that is total different issue . those people who do fraud should go to jail . i came across an iso that was frauding the statements and then the merchant would give bank log in and not understand why people were calling them fraud ..

[jotucker1983]

Centralized Industry Association

Guys, the fact remains as I stated on this Forum prior, the only way to solve this is for the large funders, lenders and brokerages (the ones who control the vast majority of industry market share) to put money in a pool and create a centralized industry association/authority. The authority would be funded by dues from all players and would license/regulate all activities within the merchant cash advance and alternative business lending side of things in terms of "ethics".

Annual dues would keep it funded/operating and every sales rep would be placed into a database with a licensing number, as well as required to complete continuing education every 3 years. To be initially licensed, some reps could get a "by" due to experience, and others will have to take/pass an exam.

A rep can be reported by a partner (lender or funder) as well as a merchant, and the central authority would investigate the situation and either put a "mark" next to the rep or withdraw the complaint if it's found to be faulty. After a certain number of "marks", the rep would be banned from selling the product for "X" amount of time. In addition, all reps must disclose their licensing number, any caught selling the product and their marketing material does not disclose their licensing number, would be fined "X" amount similar to how V/MC card brands will fine an MLS for not disclosing the ISO/MSP they will board a merchant with.

Either we do this as an industry, or the government does it, which one do you want? I would prefer if we do this because the government is going to come in here "regulating" and turn a flame into a forest fire.

[YuliyaG]

Centralized Industry Association

Guys, the fact remains as I stated on this Forum prior, the only way to solve this is for the large funders, lenders and brokerages (the ones who control the vast majority of industry market share) to put money in a pool and create a centralized industry association/authority. The authority would be funded by dues from all players and would license/regulate all activities within the merchant cash advance and alternative business lending side of things in terms of "ethics".

Annual dues would keep it funded/operating and every sales rep would be placed into a database with a licensing number, as well as required to complete continuing education every 3 years. To be initially licensed, some reps could get a "by" due to experience, and others will have to take/pass an exam.

A rep can be reported by a partner (lender or funder) as well as a merchant, and the central authority would investigate the situation and either put a "mark" next to the rep or withdraw the complaint if it's found to be faulty. After a certain number of "marks", the rep would be banned from selling the product for "X" amount of time. In addition, all reps must disclose their licensing number, any caught selling the product and their marketing material does not disclose their licensing number, would be fined "X" amount similar to how V/MC card brands will fine an MLS for not disclosing the ISO/MSP they will board a merchant with.

Either we do this as an industry, or the government does it, which one do you want? I would prefer if we do this because the government is going to come in here "regulating" and turn a flame into a forest fire.

The spirit of this all sounds great but there are some challenges...

1. Self regulation will just create a market inefficiency for would be capitalists to take advantage of. Let me explain... each new funder who pops is not required to get a license under a "self regulatatory" framework. They can raise a ton of cash and recruit all the bad brokers who've been "black listed" and immediately capitalize on the fact that brokers have no where to place their paper. In fact, that's what would happen, guys would start spin off companies left and right...

2. "Large funders" are not the solution and this is DOA as the framework you envision requires deep collaboration, down to sharing a bunch of info that funders are not willing to, and have no incentive to share with one another.

3. Junk cases will flood the system under your solution regarding reporting. Guys are fighting for any edge they can get. I can see it now, someone hiring someone in India just to constantly report brokers posing as merchants, other brokers and so forth - immediately denigrates the integrity of the whole thing. Makes a BROKER paying anything useless.

These are just three things that come to mind... The self regulation solution can't and won't happen. There are some real problems in the industry and I don't think self regulation works or that government regulation is necessary.

I think decentralization is the key to the industry's survival.

[FUNd]

every industry has scumbags , be better and win business the honest way

I do. Everyday.

[AndyYSCISOdept]

I do. Everyday.

You remind me of "Harvey" from the show SUITS on USA Network. Great Show BTW.

[Funder Mark]

Coming back on the 27th, really looking forward!!!

[jotucker1983]

Yuliya,

I understand some of your points, but why is it that industry regulation (self-regulation) works for other areas of financial services? Why can it not work for our space?

I don't think it would be perfect (no regulation is), but if we don't do something to iron out the bad ethics as well as eliminate over-saturation, we are all going to sit around and watch our industry (that we all helped build) deteriorate. The two main culprits would be unscrupulous brokers as well as rookie brokers who receive no quality training, clog up the telephones for 2 months, sell nothing, and then exit the industry.

I think it's time that we start respecting ourselves as competent professionals and stop prostituting our industry to just "anybody" with a pulse/heart beat who wants to come in here. The plan I laid out, while not perfect by any means and could use some form of customization, is a start down the right path if we can get the large players to fund it.

[AndyYSCISOdept]

Coming back on the 27th, really looking forward!!!

K don't tell me anything Im still catching up on season 4, doing one of those binge watching maneuvers

[Funder Mark]

John,

While I think your ideas sound great, in theory it will not work out so well. A mortgage broker is dependant on his bank for the funding, and the banks work with the federal government to make sure everything is legal. The only way your idea would work is if all the funders who work on creating this organization agree not to accept business from any brokers who are not signed on, AND all those brokers agree not to submit any deals to funders who are not part of the group. Without both of those in place, there is nothing to speak about.

[YuliyaG]

Yuliya,

I understand some of your points, but why is it that industry regulation (self-regulation) works for other areas of financial services? Why can it not work for our space?

I don't think it would be perfect (no regulation is), but if we don't do something to iron out the bad ethics as well as eliminate over-saturation, we are all going to sit around and watch our industry (that we all helped build) deteriorate. The two main culprits would be unscrupulous brokers as well as rookie brokers who receive no quality training, clog up the telephones for 2 months, sell nothing, and then exit the industry.

I think it's time that we start respecting ourselves as competent professionals and stop prostituting our industry to just "anybody" with a pulse/heart beat who wants to come in here. The plan I laid out, while not perfect by any means and could use some form of customization, is a start down the right path if we can get the large players to fund it.

I think there's always a "better way." One without a bunch of rules and organization dues. Here's what one funder is doing and what it means...

Funders can offer closing support: As everyone knows, we can't close a door. So, we jumped at the chance to work with a funder who will pay us a very generous commission and who will also close the file for us. I know other funders offer this as a service and will continue to do so, but these guys are on the more polished side of things. Being able to see the status of your deal whenever you want, without waiting for an e-mail, or praying the guy answers the phone is key...

So, we're combining that with our ability to get app + banks in 10 minutes to shoot them over to this funder. Here's why solutions like this are more likely to be impactful than self regulation...

Let's say we were rogue and really bad brokers prone to pull every shady trick in the book to survive. The sheer time savings + great commissions = scamming is foolish. It would take way more time to make less money if you're scamming because you have do things like say "hey send me papers." Then you have to follow up repeatedly, etc.

It starts to make as much sense as walking into a store with a $100 bill, asking for change, and happily accepting a $20 bill before heading out the door.

The time, effort and energy it takes to scam under this scenario becomes less profitable vs. investing 10 minutes a bunch of times (assuming one call app generation)...

The funder gets a ton of benefits out of the deal as well, they get to cultivate and to a degree protect the relationship with the merchant along with other unspoken benefits.

There are other ways... combine them all... no self or gov reg needed...

[bsmith]

Centralized Industry Association

Guys, the fact remains as I stated on this Forum prior, the only way to solve this is for the large funders, lenders and brokerages (the ones who control the vast majority of industry market share) to put money in a pool and create a centralized industry association/authority. The authority would be funded by dues from all players and would license/regulate all activities within the merchant cash advance and alternative business lending side of things in terms of "ethics".

Annual dues would keep it funded/operating and every sales rep would be placed into a database with a licensing number, as well as required to complete continuing education every 3 years. To be initially licensed, some reps could get a "by" due to experience, and others will have to take/pass an exam.

A rep can be reported by a partner (lender or funder) as well as a merchant, and the central authority would investigate the situation and either put a "mark" next to the rep or withdraw the complaint if it's found to be faulty. After a certain number of "marks", the rep would be banned from selling the product for "X" amount of time. In addition, all reps must disclose their licensing number, any caught selling the product and their marketing material does not disclose their licensing number, would be fined "X" amount similar to how V/MC card brands will fine an MLS for not disclosing the ISO/MSP they will board a merchant with.

Either we do this as an industry, or the government does it, which one do you want? I would prefer if we do this because the government is going to come in here "regulating" and turn a flame into a forest fire.

We don't need a bureaucracy. If you feel that anyone you have worked with is a scumbag, don't work with them. Put them on your blacklist and don't ever do business with them on any level. Eventually they will run out of people to do business with and they will move on. Sure this may take a while, but if you are truly sick of them, then put the scumbags in their place. Tell them they are scumbags, tell your affiliates and partners they are scumbags, and if you really want them to stop then make it public. They are only scumbags because someone has enabled them. If the merchants are getting duped before making it to the funder, they are enabling the scumbags by going along with whatever the scumbag tells them; they enable the scumbags through ignorance. Once a merchant makes it to the funders, anything after that means the scumbag has been enabled through the funder's lack of action upon discovering the scum. Of course funders can't be blamed for first time issues, we can all get fooled once, but allowing yourself to be "fooled" more than once, especially from the same entity, is just bad regardless of what topic you are discussing. Do your part; don't work with scumbags and don't work with people who DO work with scumbags.

[NiceJewishBoy]

Well I wonder how many scummy MCA brokers were originally scummy stockbrokers? I'm sure there's more than enough people here who have seen resumes with names like John Thomas Financial and Meyers Associates LP on them

[J.Celifarco]

Everything sounds great on a forum, at the end of the day the 4-7 biggest banks in the industry and 3-5 biggest iso's have the power. The banks because every ISO needs them to fund their deals and the those really big ISO's because some banks depend on them for deal flow. If you want anything fixed it will start with them. The problem is that for that to happen all of these parties would have to agree to what they will do because if it is not across the board with all of these companies then the scumbags of the industry will just go work with the banks not following the same rules as everyone else. This leads to the next problem all of the companies that can enforce the changes to improve the industry are competitors that are all fighting over market share. While the industry is still in a growth faze (and we are still growing) there is no way all of these companies can play nice and come to a consensus on what needs to be done. 1 or 2 of them will say no just to piss someone else off or because it will give them a competitive advantage. Until regulation seriously threatens the profits of these companies nothing will be done.. We all talk about regulation and the threat it is to the industry but until the big boys see it starring them in the face I doubt anything will happen with this

[AndyYSCISOdept]

Well id John, I agree that the power for change lies with a handful of people and while I wont say its impossible, it is damn near it to think that all of those individuals could hash out a set of rules for everyone to follow, because inevitably, like you said earlier, it only takes one hold out or one guy trying to be a pr*** to bring the whole house of cards down. And that creates another issue which is, if this is attempted and doesn't succeed everyone has played their hand and shown how where they're vulnerable and no one will want to retry for a very very long time.