[MCNetwork]

if a merchant is desperate enough to take 3rd and 4th positions, then the original funder would have been screwed anyway. At least he gets the benefit of lasting a little longer than if the merchant didn't take a stack.

[fundingsmbs]

If you got your first position funded for "x" but you really needed "y" to resolve your issues as a merchant, are they really going to stop searching for additional funds? If a merchant got $20K because that specific funder had an UW matrix that funds a low % of gross sales, but really needed $40K, is it fair to handcuff the merchant and not allow them to obtain the necessary funding from someone else? I agree with some posts, its the 3rds on that seem to be questionable. Every deal is different. Each business has different margins, bank health etc. you can't generalize that ALL stacking impacts merchants in a negative manner.

[Karen37a]

if a merchant is desperate enough to take 3rd and 4th positions, then the original funder would have been screwed anyway. At least he gets the benefit of lasting a little longer than if the merchant didn't take a stack.

Sometimes...depends on the % of the payment to avg daly balance and cash flow and what the merchants real intentions were

Some have decided to fold their business and taking one for the road...this is where the street smarts come in

[Karen37a]

Oh yeah what do I know...I am some dumb telemarketer


People have low defaults for a reason do not kid yourselves

[J.Celifarco]

Most business are not going to be able to survive when they get to the point that 20% or more of there revenue are going to pay back advances. Most of these stacking companies are taking merchants way past a 20% gross reserve. Merchant are doomed to fail when they get to that point

[Karen37a]

Most business are not going to be able to survive when they get to the point that 20% or more of there revenue are going to pay back advances. Most of these stacking companies are taking merchants way past a 20% gross reserve. Merchant are doomed to fail when they get to that point

Sometimes you see revenue coming and a bump in gross...it depends

[J.Celifarco]

Sometimes you see revenue coming and a bump in gross...it depends

what??? gross reserve doesnt change that much from month to month that can let a merchant sustain payment that take this much of their total revenue. I dont care the industry the merchant will eventually fail or default on his positions so he has the money to run his business

[Karen37a]

what??? gross reserve doesnt change that much from month to month that can let a merchant sustain payment that take this much of their total revenue. I dont care the industry the merchant will eventually fail or default on his positions so he has the money to run his business

Some of my merchants doubled their revenue because they really used the money for expansion or marketing. Also recivables could be held up vendor payments etc.

I do not go for the clients who are drowing.Anyway I am off...not debating this

[ryan $]

We just had a 16th Position

Multiple Banks, Big Volume

[J.Celifarco]

We just had a 16th Position

Multiple Banks, Big Volume

I seriously hope this is a joke

[ryan $]

I seriously hope this is a joke

Its Not, lol

[Don Dolla]

first position funders who refinance their own balances at the same rates and terms, instead of offering a better add on product or credit increase, are just as bad as the stackers. refinance is the beginning of the end and every time a merchant refinances at 50% paid in, and multiplies their debt like that, they inevitably take a 2nd and or 3rd position within 60 days... happens every day

[fundingsmbs]

is there a study that has been done per SIC, what the max gross pull should be, on a macro level. what factual evidence do we have that states what a salon, auto repair, restaurant, manufacturer, dentist, etc can handle in repayment. does the onerous lie with the business owner on what they can handle? some funders cap 4-14% of gross on first pos based on industry and other metrics. some low offers actually activate the stacking because of the shortage of funds received on first, or, when renewals forces a merchant to wait 50-60% paid down, but an emergency occurs, and they need a quick injection that day and can't wait 2-3 more months. a lot of variables in play here as to why stacking has become part of this business.

[J.Celifarco]

first position funders who refinance their own balances at the same rates and terms, instead of offering a better add on product or credit increase, are just as bad as the stackers. refinance is the beginning of the end and every time a merchant refinances at 50% paid in, and multiplies their debt like that, they inevitably take a 2nd and or 3rd position within 60 days... happens every day

this is the thinking that will kill this industry

[fundingsmbs]

first position funders who refinance their own balances at the same rates and terms, instead of offering a better add on product or credit increase, are just as bad as the stackers. refinance is the beginning of the end and every time a merchant refinances at 50% paid in, and multiplies their debt like that, they inevitably take a 2nd and or 3rd position within 60 days... happens every day

that was the core model for several of the largest mca's in this space. refinancing vs add ons. it made them a lot of money. now that the space is crowded and more information is available for business owners out there, that model has been challenged. double dipping is not helping a business owner. do the ben franklin of a double dip vs a second positon and you will see the logic

[abfunders]

what??? gross reserve doesnt change that much from month to month that can let a merchant sustain payment that take this much of their total revenue. I dont care the industry the merchant will eventually fail or default on his positions so he has the money to run his business

John, some merchants actually survive an MCA experience.
I've seen it several times. One with 4 positions, back to business as normal. One with OnDeck for a year, they got where they wanted, and started hunting for something better. Clients who have an Amazon loan and they can turn $1 into $1.50 over 3 months, so an MCA is all they have access to.

There are many people here who have re-fi'ed MCAs into something more manageable, by getting them an SBA or LOC/term-loan blend, on the tail end of a series of them, which is what I'm presently involved with on with some very large files.

[MCNetwork]

I agree with this but unfortunately these stories aren't too common. A lot of them end up going out of business. Try calling a UCC list from a few years ago and tell me how many disconnected numbers you find...

[J.Celifarco]

John, some merchants actually survive an MCA experience.
I've seen it several times. One with 4 positions, back to business as normal. One with OnDeck for a year, they got where they wanted, and started hunting for something better. Clients who have an Amazon loan and they can turn $1 into $1.50 over 3 months, so an MCA is all they have access to.

There are many people here who have re-fi'ed MCAs into something more manageable, by getting them an SBA or LOC/term-loan blend, on the tail end of a series of them, which is what I'm presently involved with on with some very large files.

I 100% agree, I have tons of merchants who have taken 1 or even a first and second and used it to turn huge profits. My point is when you get to 3rds and higher positions then that in most cases, not all but most merchant is just taking position after position to stay afloat or to be able to pay the positions they have open already. I think the amount of success stories for people whop have taken excessive stacks are probably very very small

[Don Dolla]

sales people can't do math or look at things from a different perspective, that's why i'm making a killing stacking like pancakes

[Don Dolla]

the majority of merchants who have taken 3rd and 4th, are the same merchants who elected to refinance their balances in the past from a so called good first position lender and they never catch up from that Refi decision, and it becomes a revolving door of open advances after that.... i'm just playing devils advocate here, i like stacking, i like clients that renew their first positions too but i see fault on both sides

[WhoisKingsley]

Stackers plug the gaps in the original funders programs. They meet a need that can't be filled by the original provider. One can argue that the stackers even keep problematic merchants afloat longer so he can repay the original advance and for that, the first position companies should be eternally grateful.

Who ever said that the first position Funder was the right choice. It's a deal by deal case. Buy out a few... etc. There is a few ways of looking at why a deal is stacked. How it is done is the issue.

[mcaguru]

FYI: I love 1st position Subprime files...we have a big (or as our #1 would say HUGHHHHH) portfolio of 1sts!

[Nunya]

FYI: I love 1st position Subprime files...we have a big (or as our #1 would say HUGHHHHH) portfolio of 1sts!

But the bulk of your business is stacking, correct?

[Nunya]

that was the core model for several of the largest mca's in this space. refinancing vs add ons. it made them a lot of money. now that the space is crowded and more information is available for business owners out there, that model has been challenged. double dipping is not helping a business owner. do the ben franklin of a double dip vs a second positon and you will see the logic

Not all double dip. Do right by your merchant and put them somewhere they're not paying fees on fees and you'll end up with a decent renewal book.

[WestCoastFunding]

If you aren’t an actual bank, chances are you’re stacking someone. All the 1st position funders are more than willing to ‘stack’ on a SBA or bank loan.