[HDF]

And, at proper capacity, if the computer can't recognize it, the human couldn't either so, you have to re-request docs anyways.

Ok, so that right there is the game changer. I'm sure however that top down needs to meet bottom up in terms of client acquisition at some point. But where? At what level does the productivity gained by the lender/funder benefit the broker/ISO? Or better stated perhaps, broker/ISO does the same amount of work and recon, and actually may spend more time in the process than less all said and done. Yet Funder/Lender benefits from economies of automation.

Still, I am a buyer of the opportunity and real FinTech for once. Not the paper chase.

[Cfairbank]

And, at proper capacity, if the computer can't recognize it, the human couldn't either so, you have to re-request docs anyways.

Ok, so that right there is the game changer. I'm sure however that top down needs to meet bottom up in terms of client acquisition at some point. But where? At what level does the productivity gained by the lender/funder benefit the broker/ISO? Or better stated perhaps, broker/ISO does the same amount of work and recon, and actually may spend more time in the process than less all said and done. Yet Funder/Lender benefits from economies of automation.

Still, I am a buyer of the opportunity and real FinTech for once. Not the paper chase.

Fair points, and this may be much more applicable to our partners than a traditional MCA funder. As we've seen in this chain, a clear complaint of Breakout by a number of ISOs has been our lack approvals due to our differentiated underwriting model; but that is coupled with a recognition that if we make an offer, it typically won't be beat. And I'm pretty sure our reputation as a "safe" place to send apps is clear.... we receive tens of thousands of apps, and haven't even been accused of mismanaging one.... So if this technology allows a broker that views us as difficult to send us an app, with no extra work except pressing "send", but the potential to receive a real-time approval that is unlikely to be beat (even if that was the only approval of 10 submitted), does that make it worth it for the brokers that view us as difficult (especially since they know we won't backdoor apps)? And that's just the immediate benefits...

[Karen37a]

Fair points, and this may be much more applicable to our partners than a traditional MCA funder. As we've seen in this chain, a clear complaint of Breakout by a number of ISOs has been our lack approvals due to our differentiated underwriting model; but that is coupled with a recognition that if we make an offer, it typically won't be beat. And I'm pretty sure our reputation as a "safe" place to send apps is clear.... we receive tens of thousands of apps, and haven't even been accused of mismanaging one.... So if this technology allows a broker that views us as difficult to send us an app, with no extra work except pressing "send", but the potential to receive a real-time approval that is unlikely to be beat (even if that was the only approval of 10 submitted), does that make it worth it for the brokers that view us as difficult (especially since they know we won't backdoor apps)? And that's just the immediate benefits...

Carl,

They see you as "difficult" because of the tighter underwriting guidelines( and fewer approvals ) because you are A "plus"paper. Not the difficulty of sending the application ( once you get everything uploaded you hit send...just type in different funders email address). Or your CRM system sends it out with a hit of a button...you just choose which button

Tighter guidelines and more stips -=A paper-=better rates.
( and that's the way it should be)

And again for those who didn't see ( standard applications with no company name on it= more chances for backdooring.)That application will be passed around like candy to kids at a carnival, everyone claiming its theirs...I've seen applications where it was clear that someone chopped off the top of the application and photoshop their company name on it or just patched together photocopied it).

I have a compliance rule that we always get a new application with our company name on it, even if the other was blank and dated within 30 days. No one should ever allow noncompany specific application, nondifferrencieted...it opens up a new can of worms..people pulling credit all over the place.



Fishing in the wrong pond


The benefit of doing business with your company and companies like yours is getting the A-plus paper great rates and safety of knowing you are not being backdoored.

There will be low approval ratios and lower submissions,...smaller market of people who are just below banking grade but slightly above mca, who actually want/need money.

They are also harder to close because they are not "desperate" and can go anywhere they choose..."Close" meaning get the initial documents in and application ( thats the hard part)

its way harder to do ...and sometimes not worth it

[Eddie.deangelis]

Karen I could not agree more when it comes to Sales ! You can have the most money, the best business plan on the planet, organization, structure, good network, big credit lines and look like a billion dollars on paper but without Sales you can put it all in the trash! You have to appreciate the cream of the crop, the true closers, the true relationship builder that starts, builds and maintains the customer relationships for life as simple as brushing their teeth! Never underestimate the true salesman! It all starts with Sales, no Sales no business very simple!

[Karen37a]

Karen I could not agree more when it comes to Sales ! You can have the most money, the best business plan on the planet, organization, structure, good network, big credit lines and look like a billion dollars on paper but without Sales you can put it all in the trash! You have to appreciate the cream of the crop, the true closers, the true relationship builder that starts, builds and maintains the customer relationships for life as simple as brushing their teeth! Never underestimate the true salesman! It all starts with Sales, no Sales no business very simple!

I agree.

And isos recruit brokers ( which is a sale) you are selling yourself

And Funders recruit Isos....and the person who is in charge is selling themselves ( your sales rep are the one helping , they are key ) and selling the leadership of the company

The best sales managers and owners were once salespeople themselves. ( or still are, leading the charge from the front..in small to mid size organizations)

Salespeople respect production and results...thats it.
( which is why they come across as cocky and arrogant )

they get tired of people below them telling them what to do or how to do it better and adopt the mentality of "numbers talk and bull shi* walks " which makes the non producers hate them with every fiber of their being.

[WestCoastFunding]

Karen I could not agree more when it comes to Sales ! You can have the most money, the best business plan on the planet, organization, structure, good network, big credit lines and look like a billion dollars on paper but without Sales you can put it all in the trash! You have to appreciate the cream of the crop, the true closers, the true relationship builder that starts, builds and maintains the customer relationships for life as simple as brushing their teeth! Never underestimate the true salesman! It all starts with Sales, no Sales no business very simple!

Please don't agree with her. It will only encourage her more.

[CraaaCraaa Radio]

Karen I could not agree more when it comes to Sales ! You can have the most money, the best business plan on the planet, organization, structure, good network, big credit lines and look like a billion dollars on paper but without Sales you can put it all in the trash! You have to appreciate the cream of the crop, the true closers, the true relationship builder that starts, builds and maintains the customer relationships for life as simple as brushing their teeth! Never underestimate the true salesman! It all starts with Sales, no Sales no business very simple!

Some Funders or ISO"s think you can replace good sales people just like that. But that is far from the truth and at times it's because the owners put people in positions that make and take things personal and always have an agenda. If your not hands on to know what is going on in your organization than you will take several losses!!! Starting with your grade A employees

[WhoisKingsley]

Some Funders or ISO"s think you can replace good sales people just like that. But that is far from the truth and at times it's because the owners put people in positions that make and take things personal and always have an agenda. If your not hands on to know what is going on in your organization than you will take several losses!!! Starting with your grade A employees

PREACH! okay back to the subject.

[Cfairbank]

Meant to have this posed as a hypothetical question, but given the doubts instead of offering uses, I'll add a bit of background before we make this available to select partners (yes, I mean what you read). It's an eye-opening experience when you really start exploring how advanced we (humankind) are already in "artificial intelligence" (or robotics or machine learning or whatever you want to call it); we are already at the point where machines NEED to be controlled by humans to ensure they don't learn too much. Unlike humans that have real "limitations", a computer's limitations are man-made and machines every day conduct many tasks well beyond a humans limitations -- and via ML and a constant feedback loop, they are constantly improving their accuracy and, if aren't restricted to solving for only a single solution, should also develop seemingly extraneous, but potentially significant, self-taught applications. And the simplest applications are ones like I originally posed, where machines are fed with enough enough data points, they can learn to process, AT A MINIMUM, anything if it is legible to human eye -- and forget about basic OCR -- this is about a machine extracting correlations that are cross referenced across millions of data points that are mostly naked to the human eye... and with a sufficient amount of data, it doesn't take long before the machines will be more accurate than a human eye and not subject to human errors, biases, or "judgement calls". (not talking, nor do I intend to, enter any sort of discussion about the "value" of a salesperson.

For those still in doubt, there are so many examples of machines that weren't "fully" or "properly" restricted by human imposed limitations, that eventually would surpass the best of the best of mankind. Take the chess master example (which was restricted and once enough games were played, it would take all that data to calculate the "best" move for any move made by the chess master) or Facebook who had to shut down "Alice & Bob" because, without human-enforced limits, they began to develop their own language that even Facebook couldn't understand. There are tons of examples like this.

In my original query to folks, no one answered how helpful it would be -- just stated that it isn't possible. Whether or not folks believe it, humor me and let's assume it does exist: how useful would it be? Would that lead to more shotgunning or more "first looks"?

But, a simple application like I posed above is just the tip of the iceberg. As an industry, we are behind. I know where we (Breakout) are going, but so many of the growing issues around fraud, identity, trades or double funding, and even potentially putting stacking on much shakier legal ground (and of course fixing Karen's complaint about backdooring) can be addressed through something similar to what the SBFA does today for it's members, but "built" on the right technology and with open participation to create a unmalleable, decentralized, digital ledger...... aka the "SMBL" BC).

[MCNetwork]

Speed of the the approval is never the issue. Receiving an approval within 5 minutes versus 48 hours won't make or break the deal as long as you know how to manage the merchant's expectations. And if an "A" paper candidate is in such a dire rush, then he's probably not really "A" paper anyway...

[Cfairbank]

Speed of the the approval is never the issue. Receiving an approval within 5 minutes versus 48 hours won't make or break the deal as long as you know how to manage the merchant's expectations. And if an "A" paper candidate is in such a dire rush, then he's probably not really "A" paper anyway...

And there is the answer -- why do folks love OnDeck's online checkout? I know how much value this has for lenders and marketplaces, but if folks don't work with us because they don't want to waste time because of our approval ratio with them, I would have thought a frictionless process (and highly accurate with no impact on customer) would be an attractive solution for the brokers that do have very low approval rates with us.

But CCR is right, this not a breakout thread, so no need to keep debating Breakout -- I provided the context I wanted and, more importantly, posed a question to "fix" the main complaint posed in this thread (and I am candidly shocked with the full fledged skepticism, hence going further off topic): determining how a frictionless approval/denial process would be valued by brokers

[Karen37a]

When computers come up with a "lie detector" test, based off their fingerprint on the application... that will help.

Unsecured Cash advances and Unsecured Loans are a beast.

Live brokers, Live isos, live underwriting,live merchant funding calls ..( mini interrogations ).protect the downside.

You or anyone speeding up your processing ( 24 hours ) isnt going to get you more quality applications from brokers/ isos/ or anyone.


last comment on this post

[HDF]

I guess to actually answer Carl's question and thesis, my answer would be heck-yes. Yes, I think that instant feedback is a great thing if they deliver (I don't know the current technology available -as most don't either- of course).

It does get very frustrating thinking that you've checked all the right buttons and boxes with a funder/lender only to get the "declined" email 6 hours later for something like having 4 deposits in a month rather than the minimum of 5 etc. Especially if you are not shotgunning files all over the street, which you shouldn't be. So yes, there is value here if you want to try to do business with Breakout or anyone else funding who might have a similar approach at some point.

And honestly, it is a smart move for them because they will be getting a heck of a lot of first looks at mostly suitable files due to the ease of use and hopefully educating brokers and referral partners on it.

[Michael I]

Regarding break out. First off I am big fan as they do give some solid approvals. The fact that are picky I am fine with as long as they do not start bothering me like some funders with closing percentage and the such.
Carl I did not experience any long wait time for answers on approvals or declines from you.The one big issue that holds back funding some deals is the amount of stips you require. When you give a 24 month monthly payments merchants will play ball ,however I had merchants that I offered your product or pay 6% more with BFS and barely any stips(core business under 100k) and the merchant went with the higher factor .
2 years ago it was a big complaint on BFS but they really lowered stips and something you should look into.

[CraaaCraaa Radio]

Regarding break out. First off I am big fan as they do give some solid approvals. The fact that are picky I am fine with as long as they do not start bothering me like some funders with closing percentage and the such.
Carl I did not experience any long wait time for answers on approvals or declines from you.The one big issue that holds back funding some deals is the amount of stips you require. When you give a 24 month monthly payments merchants will play ball ,however I had merchants that I offered your product or pay 6% more with BFS and barely any stips(core business under 100k) and the merchant went with the higher factor .
2 years ago it was a big complaint on BFS but they really lowered stips and something you should look into.

I can relate with BFS. Alec Glazier & Billy Rosenberg are my links at BFS. They see a lot of our paper and help us, stps are minimal and your at the funding gate waiting for a notification

[Karen37a]

Standard application forms create more opportunities for backdooring ?!? I call BS.

I didnt read that far past this first comment.

Many people caught people backdooring because they asked for the original application to be produced. ...if it was standard, how would you prove it was yours. ( this is common street- smart
business sense)
And maybe you are talking about a day long gone...before people started creating 10 companies calling themselves a Direct Funder when they were not and stacking as much as they are, and purposeful defaults etc....those days are gone


And maybe can capitals standard app and other things conributed to their temporary demise ( not going to explain how)

Also certain Funders ( who are saying these things )have commented on these boards about how they saw an iso who normally does business with thems application being submitted by someone else ...( again I memorize things, blessing, and a curse)

you are 100 % wrong and shortly we will not have to converse about these things.

Think what you will...or look it up

Like the show undercover boss, there are things you cant see or discover unless you are thrown deep into the mix.When people say certain things ..i know they did not produce a lot of documents. You have to step back and accept the wisdom of those who actually did it NOt debate theories that are not battle tested...or comment away.

There is no way for me to explain or convince anyone with out coming across as arrogant and condescending ( because you have to have lived it to see )... I will not answer going forward.

[Karen37a]

The exact opposite should happen.

Everyone should have their own semi-unique application...maybe partially different and when a deal Funds... The Funder pays the company whose name is on the application.

( that will force anyone who snagged a deal to call the merchant and get a new application sent in, or waste your time sending in a deal for someone else to be paid)
no white label or white label of white label of iso deals being re-routed...or deals being closed off the back end.

( this will ruin some peoples only marketing plan so I am sure this will not be a popular idea,)

I heard the same exact words and phrases from some of you and I knew you were talking to each other so do not think I ever trusted you, and I was right.( a few of you lost a lot of money too backing the wrong horse) ...all trying to figure out some unique identifier to get an edge...save the attacks.

Sales are sales...pick up the phone

** new rules. I will not chat with people who cant close 6-7 deals personally themselves, in one month...min 150k-200k or 2-5 million plus team/ them being a salesperson

[RickyR3712]

You have to know what to send to breakout.First off do not expect more than 5% commission. However do expect a great product with great people.I do agree with some of the above that stips is a big issue and why they can not be a go to lender for the standard daily 12 month 1.30.

[Cfairbank]

You have to know what to send to breakout.First off do not expect more than 5% commission. However do expect a great product with great people.I do agree with some of the above that stips is a big issue and why they can not be a go to lender for the standard daily 12 month 1.30.

Regarding break out. First off I am big fan as they do give some solid approvals. The fact that are picky I am fine with as long as they do not start bothering me like some funders with closing percentage and the such.
Carl I did not experience any long wait time for answers on approvals or declines from you.The one big issue that holds back funding some deals is the amount of stips you require. When you give a 24 month monthly payments merchants will play ball ,however I had merchants that I offered your product or pay 6% more with BFS and barely any stips(core business under 100k) and the merchant went with the higher factor .
2 years ago it was a big complaint on BFS but they really lowered stips and something you should look into.

Again, two very helpful (and in my mind, completely accurate complaints) that we have internalized and, have been working to develop, in addition to other applications, ways to address internally (and completely behind the scenes) but on a much more scalable level via the applicability of advanced forms of technology. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are exogenous factors that lead to extreme, nearly all or nothing, results, which is a lenders nightmare -- see IOUs latest filing), that we are trying to use statistical provabilities via advanced ML to better "capture" those "so called" exogenous factors, and make them more easily identifiable and quantifiable, through different forms of advanced technology; but until we do, we will have a hard time being that "simple, 12 1.30x lender." But "little victories" will make your request possible near term, and once we have rolled out the proper applications of our technology, OR offer "seamless" application of increased security, to eliminate best quantify the "all or nothings",my hope os we can take the bulk of your easy 1.3 over 12 months and make approval much simpler, with less stips, and much more attractive approvals than a 12 month 1.3 all-in, immediately, with less work on the end of the broker and the merchant.

[Jess]

Again, two very helpful (and in my mind, completely accurate complaints) that we have internalized and, have been working to develop, in addition to other applications, ways to address internally (and completely behind the scenes) but on a much more scalable level via the applicability of advanced forms of technology. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are exogenous factors that lead to extreme, nearly all or nothing, results, which is a lenders nightmare -- see IOUs latest filing), that we are trying to use statistical provabilities via advanced ML to better "capture" those "so called" exogenous factors, and make them more easily identifiable and quantifiable, through different forms of advanced technology; but until we do, we will have a hard time being that "simple, 12 1.30x lender." But "little victories" will make your request possible near term, and once we have rolled out the proper applications of our technology, OR offer "seamless" application of increased security, to eliminate best quantify the "all or nothings",my hope os we can take the bulk of your easy 1.3 over 12 months and make approval much simpler, with less stips, and much more attractive approvals than a 12 month 1.3 all-in, immediately, with less work on the end of the broker and the merchant.

Looks like IOU got hit by consolidators-that is exogenous but I saw that "non-portfolio" assets are equal to 20% of portfolio...c'mon man how much of that is comprised of "servicing" and deferred tax assets. Good grief Mr. Wonderful!

[Cfairbank]

Looks like IOU got hit by consolidators-that is exogenous but I saw that "non-portfolio" assets are equal to 20% of portfolio...c'mon man how much of that is comprised of "servicing" and deferred tax assets. Good grief Mr. Wonderful!

? Not trying to be anything but open (as we have made a ton of mistakes ourselves, that we do our best to learn from), and my point was referring to IOU's comments on the impact on their default rate via the rise of debt settlement companies, which in a consolidation product today, is a reasonably likely outcome (I assume they dropped that product too, as we did too once it became too unpredictable, even if it was profitable for us). The factors we still have to view as exogenous are the stacks on a-paper (previously unstacked) that lead to debt settlement companies (and therefore a all-or-nothing result). We are working hard on making those risks, that are currently exogenous in our view, risks identifiable; but we aren't there yet across the board: and that's why we won't win every 12 month 1.3x -- we will typically give that client either a decline (because of how our model works) or a much lower rate, longer-term product.

[Jess]

? Not trying to be anything but open (as we have made a ton of mistakes ourselves, that we do our best to learn from), and my point was referring to IOU's comments on the impact on their default rate via the rise of debt settlement companies, which in a consolidation product today, is a reasonably likely outcome (I assume they dropped that product too, as we did too once it became too unpredictable, even if it was profitable for us). The factors we still have to view as exogenous are the stacks on a-paper (previously unstacked) that lead to debt settlement companies (and therefore a all-or-nothing result). We are working hard on making those risks, that are currently exogenous in our view, risks identifiable; but we aren't there yet across the board: and that's why we won't win every 12 month 1.3x -- we will typically give that client either a decline (because of how our model works) or a much lower rate, longer-term product.

Yeah that's not the point I was making. You shouldn't want to win every single deal. Your box is your box and be relatively consistent. My point is that IOU's Balance Sheet and capital structure is a clusterf*ck of epic proportions. Interesting how the Direct Lending's returns are so consistent when IOU is taking huge hits....kinda like PAF and Argon.

[Karen37a]

And it's not the speed of approval people are looking for( one small factor) ...its the "certainty"

Knowing the algorithms in advance...stips and trying your best to send deals to the right people.While protecting the backend.


And certain companies that people quoted raised money thru private placements and their future is dependent on getting in more transaction in an uncertain tightened credit market....

( inability to raise capital key issues as always for some)

that and litigation risk etc etc etc


** Sometimes i can see in advance when someone is toppling; I hear the timmmberrrr call . I wish I had it in me like George Soros sometimes to pummel someone( short it ) to the ground ..I only get their when instigated. Guess thats why some are Billionaires

[CraaaCraaa Radio]

Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. You the individual have the tools at your fingertips, why not cultivate it to remain competitive.

Sometimes thinking outside the box will have your box filled with happy Iso's and a bigger portfolio of merchants!!!

[Karen37a]

Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. You the individual have the tools at your fingertips, why not cultivate it to remain competitive.

Sometimes thinking outside the box will have your box filled with happy Iso's and a bigger portfolio of merchants!!!

Thinking outside the box to avoid "picking up the phone " to chat with a client or merchant is what people have been doing since the dawn of ages, so that isnt really "thinking outside the box"

Sales is not easy and the strongest salesperson usually gets the sale of they get ahold of it..

You can decide to build a warehouse and have numbers like a bakery ..and scream "next online" for all the people who are going to walk up to purchase...or have a line with a red rope, or have seating and serve coffee while they wait, with soft music on .

The problem is you have to get the people to the warehouse

( this is the 10-20th time I've given this analogy to the df and 1000000 in life, anyone who doesnt know this is going out of business once they run out of money)


** hope its not vitos money or someone who is going to charge you with something once you lose it