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  1. #1

    Stackers?

    Who is good at coming in at 5th, 6th and 7ths?

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    Debt Collectors

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    Senior Member Reputation points: 158186 ryan $'s Avatar
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    There are so many weird funding companies, weird names youve never heard of funding all the shit deals.

  4. #4
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    Colin Beaudoin | Funding Specialist

    420 Lexington Ave

    New York, NY 10170

    Tel: (203)-815-4328

    O: (614)-600-8254

    https://parkviewadvance.com/

  5. #5
    Senior Member Reputation points: 41734 ridextreme's Avatar
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    If you're chasing after 7th position funders you should instead be chasing after a new career...

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    Veteran Reputation points: 137047 J.Celifarco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bestinthebiz View Post
    Who is good at coming in at 5th, 6th and 7ths?
    Seriously? 5th, 6th and 7th positions, these are the reasons you are seeing regulation being passed in different states. You and the other bottom feeders are going to be the death of this industry
    John Celifarco
    Managing Partner
    Horizon Funding Group

    3423 Ave S
    Brooklyn, NY 11234
    T: (347) 773-3990 | F: (718) 795-1990
    Linkedin: Profile
    Email: john@thehorizonfinancialgroup.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Celifarco View Post
    Seriously? 5th, 6th and 7th positions, these are the reasons you are seeing regulation being passed in different states. You and the other bottom feeders are going to be the death of this industry
    You mostly see these on high volume deals with issues. restricted industry, defaults, etc.

    Every bottom tier lender hops in for 30 days for 20k when they are doing 250k a month

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Celifarco View Post
    Seriously? 5th, 6th and 7th positions, these are the reasons you are seeing regulation being passed in different states. You and the other bottom feeders are going to be the death of this industry
    Lol I feel like I have seen HFG on every crappy deal I come across. But I am no-one to judge, I personally do not deal with this type of paper either but that doesn't give me the right to call anyone a bottom feeder.

    Apparently you feel entitled enough to judge, so what do you suggest someone with a 500 credit score do if they need a set amount of money and they can only get it by combining a few positions ?

    Do you suggest they just go out of business?

    I understand your position, and why some funders hate this, if you are in a priority position, but then again you are in a priority position, if you underwrote correctly you will have no issues recovering your capital.

    Many times these added positions keep the merchant a-float and lets the first and second position get paid.

    But back to my original question, do you suggest that people are banned from any options if they have crappy credentials, let them die out because they are not as qualified and well capitalized as you?

  9. #9
    Veteran Reputation points: 137047 J.Celifarco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlexibleCapitalSolutions View Post
    Lol I feel like I have seen HFG on every crappy deal I come across. But I am no-one to judge, I personally do not deal with this type of paper either but that doesn't give me the right to call anyone a bottom feeder.

    Apparently you feel entitled enough to judge, so what do you suggest someone with a 500 credit score do if they need a set amount of money and they can only get it by combining a few positions ?

    Do you suggest they just go out of business?

    I understand your position, and why some funders hate this, if you are in a priority position, but then again you are in a priority position, if you underwrote correctly you will have no issues recovering your capital.

    Many times these added positions keep the merchant a-float and lets the first and second position get paid.

    But back to my original question, do you suggest that people are banned from any options if they have crappy credentials, let them die out because they are not as qualified and well capitalized as you?
    LOL wow do you have the wrong company. First of all we are an ISO so doubt you can see us on any deal. Second of all ask anyone on this forum who knows us they know we don't touch these deals. We are 80% probably higher first position deals and nothing really over a second. So before assuming you know who I am you don't

    To your other points there is no situation where a 4th, 5th or higher position in anyway helps the client. You are hurting the business more than they already are and putting a nail in their coffin for the hopes of making a little money. If you had a solution for the client that would actually help them then yes you should try, but 20k over 30 days at a 1.50 does not help someone. The best thing to tell that person is that another position will not help you and that they should look into other options. Dont try to justify these programs because there is no way that they can help any company ever. The couple of dollars you make on the file gives the entire industry a bad name and puts targets on all of our backs for regulators.
    Last edited by J.Celifarco; 02-24-2021 at 12:30 PM.
    John Celifarco
    Managing Partner
    Horizon Funding Group

    3423 Ave S
    Brooklyn, NY 11234
    T: (347) 773-3990 | F: (718) 795-1990
    Linkedin: Profile
    Email: john@thehorizonfinancialgroup.com

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Celifarco View Post
    LOL wow do you have the wrong company. First of all we are an ISO so doubt you can see us on any deal. Second of all ask anyone on this forum who knows us they know we don't touch these deals. We are 80% probably higher first position deals and nothing really over a second. So before assuming you know who I am you don't

    To your other points there is no situation where a 4th, 5th or higher position in anyway helps the client. You are hurting the business more than they already are and putting a nail in their coffin for the hopes of making a little money. If you has a solution for the client that would actually help them then yes you should but 20k over 30 days at a 1.50 does not help someone. The best thing to tell that person is that another position will not help you and that they should look into other options. Dont try to justify these programs because there is no way that they can help any company ever. The couple of dollars you make on the file gives the entire industry a bad name and puts targets on all of our backs.
    my mistake I though you were a different company then.

    But to your points:

    " there is no situation where a 4th, 5th or higher position in anyway helps the client."

    Who are you to decide this? are you God?

    "You are hurting the business more than they already are and putting a nail in their coffin for the hopes of making a little money."

    How could you possibly know this, again who are you to decide this or make a blanket statement like this?

    "20k over 30 days at a 1.50 does not help someone."

    Who are you to decide this?
    wouldn't the owner of the business be more qualified to decide this than you?


    "The best thing to tell that person is that another position will not help you and that they should look into other options."

    If you are in this industry and you stay away from these types of deals, you know what type of conditions they are in, please give some examples of other realistic options for people in these positions. (since you clearly know everything)

    "Dont try to justify these programs because there is no way that they can help any company ever."

    I am not justifying anything, I am just curious what gives you the confidence to make all these statement and make decisions from your high horse on who needs or should take what, when and how.

    What if one day something happens to your business(es) and you are no longer able to sustain daily operations but you have put in years of work to build it up and you need it to feed your family? Lets say, for whatever reason your credit and liquidity don't allow you to obtain traditional financing (Pandemic crushed you for example). Would you like to live in a world where you have the option to take expensive money but have a chance to fight for your business? or should you just have to go out of business because another grown adult that is not in your situation decided that they don't like this type of funding so too bad for you.

    I am not justifying any type of funding, I just find blanket statements and opinions such as yours very interesting, becareful what you wish for life has a funny way of humbling you. I believe that everything should be fully disclosed to merchants, absolutely everything, even if it kills the deal but I still believe business owners should have the right to make their own decisions.

    ALL IMO

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Celifarco View Post
    LOL wow do you have the wrong company. First of all we are an ISO so doubt you can see us on any deal. Second of all ask anyone on this forum who knows us they know we don't touch these deals. We are 80% probably higher first position deals and nothing really over a second. So before assuming you know who I am you don't

    To your other points there is no situation where a 4th, 5th or higher position in anyway helps the client. You are hurting the business more than they already are and putting a nail in their coffin for the hopes of making a little money. If you had a solution for the client that would actually help them then yes you should try, but 20k over 30 days at a 1.50 does not help someone. The best thing to tell that person is that another position will not help you and that they should look into other options. Dont try to justify these programs because there is no way that they can help any company ever. The couple of dollars you make on the file gives the entire industry a bad name and puts targets on all of our backs for regulators.
    Thank you, John! You're absolutely right here. There is no scenario where a merchant having over 3 open positions makes any sense. These SCUM LENDERS (you know who you are, get fucked), that come in past the 3rd position are the reason why the MCA industry is getting unnecessary attention from lawmakers when you see people like ESENOW, for example, putting out $5k $749/day deals. There is no renewal game on positions like this and lenders like this give a bad name to the industry.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bestinthebiz View Post
    Who is good at coming in at 5th, 6th and 7ths?
    Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe........
    Seacoast Business Funding, a division of Seacoast Bank
    Kevin Henry-VP Business Development
    Kevin.Henry@SeacoastBF.com
    561-623-1872
    www.seacoastbf.com
    Boynton Beach, FL

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by FlexibleCapitalSolutions View Post
    my mistake I though you were a different company then.

    But to your points:

    " there is no situation where a 4th, 5th or higher position in anyway helps the client."

    Who are you to decide this? are you God?

    "You are hurting the business more than they already are and putting a nail in their coffin for the hopes of making a little money."

    How could you possibly know this, again who are you to decide this or make a blanket statement like this?

    "20k over 30 days at a 1.50 does not help someone."

    Who are you to decide this?
    wouldn't the owner of the business be more qualified to decide this than you?


    "The best thing to tell that person is that another position will not help you and that they should look into other options."

    If you are in this industry and you stay away from these types of deals, you know what type of conditions they are in, please give some examples of other realistic options for people in these positions. (since you clearly know everything)

    "Dont try to justify these programs because there is no way that they can help any company ever."

    I am not justifying anything, I am just curious what gives you the confidence to make all these statement and make decisions from your high horse on who needs or should take what, when and how.

    What if one day something happens to your business(es) and you are no longer able to sustain daily operations but you have put in years of work to build it up and you need it to feed your family? Lets say, for whatever reason your credit and liquidity don't allow you to obtain traditional financing (Pandemic crushed you for example). Would you like to live in a world where you have the option to take expensive money but have a chance to fight for your business? or should you just have to go out of business because another grown adult that is not in your situation decided that they don't like this type of funding so too bad for you.

    I am not justifying any type of funding, I just find blanket statements and opinions such as yours very interesting, becareful what you wish for life has a funny way of humbling you. I believe that everything should be fully disclosed to merchants, absolutely everything, even if it kills the deal but I still believe business owners should have the right to make their own decisions.

    ALL IMO
    This is essentially the same thing as a ponzi scheme in a sense. You're taking money from 1 lender to be able to cover the payments of another. It's a terrible cycle that they never get out of and it does nothing for the renewal game. Merchants who have over 3 positions have no grasp of their business or finances.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Reputation points: 158186 ryan $'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Celifarco View Post
    LOL wow do you have the wrong company. First of all we are an ISO so doubt you can see us on any deal. Second of all ask anyone on this forum who knows us they know we don't touch these deals. We are 80% probably higher first position deals and nothing really over a second. So before assuming you know who I am you don't

    To your other points there is no situation where a 4th, 5th or higher position in anyway helps the client. You are hurting the business more than they already are and putting a nail in their coffin for the hopes of making a little money. If you had a solution for the client that would actually help them then yes you should try, but 20k over 30 days at a 1.50 does not help someone. The best thing to tell that person is that another position will not help you and that they should look into other options. Dont try to justify these programs because there is no way that they can help any company ever. The couple of dollars you make on the file gives the entire industry a bad name and puts targets on all of our backs for regulators.
    This isnt true.
    One deal I remember off the top of my head, kept taking short term 1.49's over and over and over. Always paid back. And it worked for her.
    Was a car dealer, that got a significant discount for paying cash for cars.
    It worked for her. The high cost was justified, and she made it work.

    There are scenarios where a 30 day 1.50 will work. And where the short term high cost is justified, with the associated risk.

    In alot of scenarios renewing a 1st or 2nd, makes less sense than stacking, paying a factor on remaining balances already factored. Renewals shoot that remaining balance up higher than a 1.50 (1.36 x 2 = 1.72 on 50% of the Advance? - add that with the original 1.36 on 50% of the advance - and where do you end up? lets say someone renews 3 times, it gets even worse. You can argue that stacking makes more sense in some cases.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnderwritingProdigy View Post
    This is essentially the same thing as a ponzi scheme in a sense. You're taking money from 1 lender to be able to cover the payments of another. It's a terrible cycle that they never get out of and it does nothing for the renewal game. Merchants who have over 3 positions have no grasp of their business or finances.
    How so? if your first position purchased part of your receivables, for example 25% specified percentage. Don't you have 75% left over to work with and negotiate with? how is it a ponzi scheme, these aren't loans by the way, it seems you dont understand this since your calling them lenders, and they also didn't purchase your whole business, they are purchasing a percentage of your receivables not all of them.

    If the funder is stupid enough to take the risk and the business owner decides they need it what makes you better than anyone else to decide this.

  16. #16
    Veteran Reputation points: 137047 J.Celifarco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan $ View Post
    This isnt true.
    One deal I remember off the top of my head, kept taking short term 1.49's over and over and over. Always paid back. And it worked for her.
    Was a car dealer, that got a significant discount for paying cash for cars.
    It worked for her. The high cost was justified, and she made it work.

    There are scenarios where a 30 day 1.50 will work. And where the short term high cost is justified, with the associated risk.

    In alot of scenarios renewing a 1st or 2nd, makes less sense than stacking, paying a factor on remaining balances already factored. Renewals shoot that remaining balance up higher than a 1.50 (1.36 x 2 = 1.72 on 50% of the Advance? - add that with the original 1.36 on 50% of the advance - and where do you end up? lets say someone renews 3 times, it gets even worse. You can argue that stacking makes more sense in some cases.
    Yes there is always a one off where anything can make sense, but for the large majority of businesses these loans in no way help and just make a bad situation worse. To speak in absolutes was wrong there is always the off cases but for the vast majority of businesses, these deals make bad situations worse.
    John Celifarco
    Managing Partner
    Horizon Funding Group

    3423 Ave S
    Brooklyn, NY 11234
    T: (347) 773-3990 | F: (718) 795-1990
    Linkedin: Profile
    Email: john@thehorizonfinancialgroup.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlexibleCapitalSolutions View Post
    How so? if your first position purchased part of your receivables, for example 25% specified percentage. Don't you have 75% left over to work with and negotiate with? how is it a ponzi scheme, these aren't loans by the way, it seems you dont understand this since your calling them lenders, and they also didn't purchase your whole business, they are purchasing a percentage of your receivables not all of them.

    If the funder is stupid enough to take the risk and the business owner decides they need it what makes you better than anyone else to decide this.
    Except that you are leaving them no money to run their business. What type of profit margin do you think businesses work on? If you are taking more money then they make after paying bills you are by definition hurting the business not helping.
    John Celifarco
    Managing Partner
    Horizon Funding Group

    3423 Ave S
    Brooklyn, NY 11234
    T: (347) 773-3990 | F: (718) 795-1990
    Linkedin: Profile
    Email: john@thehorizonfinancialgroup.com

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Celifarco View Post
    Except that you are leaving them no money to run their business. What type of profit margin do you think businesses work on? If you are taking more money then they make after paying bills you are by definition hurting the business not helping.

    I am not disagreeing with you in certain scenarios, I see your point, but at the end of the day no-one is forcing these people to take it, and as long as everything is fully disclosed shouldnt the business owner have the right to make their own decisions?

    I think were arguing two different things. You're arguing the math on hypothetical/imaginary scenarios based on your experiences, I am arguing against your absolute/blanket statements and against your desire to take options away from other grown adults who should have the right to make their own decisions. (as long as everything is fully disclosed)

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    business owners are capable of making there own decisions what will help or hurt there business. Funders can decide how risky and aggressive they want to fund.

  20. #20
    Veteran Reputation points: 137047 J.Celifarco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlexibleCapitalSolutions View Post
    I am not disagreeing with you in certain scenarios, I see your point, but at the end of the day no-one is forcing these people to take it, and as long as everything is fully disclosed shouldnt the business owner have the right to make their own decisions?

    I think were arguing two different things. You're arguing the math on hypothetical/imaginary scenarios based on your experiences, I am arguing against your absolute/blanket statements and against your desire to take options away from other grown adults who should have the right to make their own decisions. (as long as everything is fully disclosed)

    Will never agree with knowingly selling someone something that I know will hurt their business. Especially when I know it is these programs that have put a target on the industry as a whole and will lead to regulations that could ultimately destroy the industry. Its not worth it for me or for the business owner
    John Celifarco
    Managing Partner
    Horizon Funding Group

    3423 Ave S
    Brooklyn, NY 11234
    T: (347) 773-3990 | F: (718) 795-1990
    Linkedin: Profile
    Email: john@thehorizonfinancialgroup.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Celifarco View Post
    Will never agree with knowingly selling someone something that I know will hurt their business. Especially when I know it is these programs that have put a target on the industry as a whole and will lead to regulations that could ultimately destroy the industry. Its not worth it for me or for the business owner
    The craziest deal I've seen was a public traded company, they took about $10M in MCA, with over 20 positions, and in the end got a bailout, paid everyone off, never looked back. They're up more than 200% since then!!

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Celifarco View Post
    Will never agree with knowingly selling someone something that I know will hurt their business. Especially when I know it is these programs that have put a target on the industry as a whole and will lead to regulations that could ultimately destroy the industry. Its not worth it for me or for the business owner
    Well what really put a target on this industry's back is not the actual deals, its the way some funders in this industry acted throughout their business dealings with merchants and as far as you never agreeing and never being willing to offer something like this, I am on the same page, I stay away from offering these but I like knowing that its based on my decision not to do so..... not another grownup who is not in my shoes deciding that I am not allowed.

  23. #23
    A broker should help the merchant not stress the business.

    Just like a Doctor shouldn't prescribe drugs that wont help the patient ...............Look what happened to Michael Jackson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlexibleCapitalSolutions View Post
    Well what really put a target on this industry's back is not the actual deals, its the way some funders in this industry acted throughout their business dealings with merchants and as far as you never agreeing and never being willing to offer something like this, I am on the same page, I stay away from offering these but I like knowing that its based on my decision not to do so..... not another grownup who is not in my shoes deciding that I am not allowed.

    My 2 cents worth - Look up the definition of "Tortious interference" Funder #1`has purchased 100% of future receivables until they are repaid,
    in a Merchant Cash Advance Contract.
    Dave Lambert
    FC Financial LLC
    dave@fcbankcard.com
    http://www.fcbankcard.com
    1-727-291-7890 (Text or Leave Message)
    Office: 727-233-1111

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    Senior Member Reputation points: 158186 ryan $'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankeeman07 View Post
    My 2 cents worth - Look up the definition of "Tortious interference" Funder #1`has purchased 100% of future receivables until they are repaid,
    in a Merchant Cash Advance Contract.
    Uhm, No. They Purchased a Percentage, not 100%, that's ridiculous.

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