[Cfairbank]

And, at proper capacity, if the computer can't recognize it, the human couldn't either so, you have to re-request docs anyways.

Ok, so that right there is the game changer. I'm sure however that top down needs to meet bottom up in terms of client acquisition at some point. But where? At what level does the productivity gained by the lender/funder benefit the broker/ISO? Or better stated perhaps, broker/ISO does the same amount of work and recon, and actually may spend more time in the process than less all said and done. Yet Funder/Lender benefits from economies of automation.

Still, I am a buyer of the opportunity and real FinTech for once. Not the paper chase.

Fair points, and this may be much more applicable to our partners than a traditional MCA funder. As we've seen in this chain, a clear complaint of Breakout by a number of ISOs has been our lack approvals due to our differentiated underwriting model; but that is coupled with a recognition that if we make an offer, it typically won't be beat. And I'm pretty sure our reputation as a "safe" place to send apps is clear.... we receive tens of thousands of apps, and haven't even been accused of mismanaging one.... So if this technology allows a broker that views us as difficult to send us an app, with no extra work except pressing "send", but the potential to receive a real-time approval that is unlikely to be beat (even if that was the only approval of 10 submitted), does that make it worth it for the brokers that view us as difficult (especially since they know we won't backdoor apps)? And that's just the immediate benefits...

[Karen37a]

Fair points, and this may be much more applicable to our partners than a traditional MCA funder. As we've seen in this chain, a clear complaint of Breakout by a number of ISOs has been our lack approvals due to our differentiated underwriting model; but that is coupled with a recognition that if we make an offer, it typically won't be beat. And I'm pretty sure our reputation as a "safe" place to send apps is clear.... we receive tens of thousands of apps, and haven't even been accused of mismanaging one.... So if this technology allows a broker that views us as difficult to send us an app, with no extra work except pressing "send", but the potential to receive a real-time approval that is unlikely to be beat (even if that was the only approval of 10 submitted), does that make it worth it for the brokers that view us as difficult (especially since they know we won't backdoor apps)? And that's just the immediate benefits...

Carl,

They see you as "difficult" because of the tighter underwriting guidelines( and fewer approvals ) because you are A "plus"paper. Not the difficulty of sending the application ( once you get everything uploaded you hit send...just type in different funders email address). Or your CRM system sends it out with a hit of a button...you just choose which button

Tighter guidelines and more stips -=A paper-=better rates.
( and that's the way it should be)

And again for those who didn't see ( standard applications with no company name on it= more chances for backdooring.)That application will be passed around like candy to kids at a carnival, everyone claiming its theirs...I've seen applications where it was clear that someone chopped off the top of the application and photoshop their company name on it or just patched together photocopied it).

I have a compliance rule that we always get a new application with our company name on it, even if the other was blank and dated within 30 days. No one should ever allow noncompany specific application, nondifferrencieted...it opens up a new can of worms..people pulling credit all over the place.



Fishing in the wrong pond


The benefit of doing business with your company and companies like yours is getting the A-plus paper great rates and safety of knowing you are not being backdoored.

There will be low approval ratios and lower submissions,...smaller market of people who are just below banking grade but slightly above mca, who actually want/need money.

They are also harder to close because they are not "desperate" and can go anywhere they choose..."Close" meaning get the initial documents in and application ( thats the hard part)

its way harder to do ...and sometimes not worth it

[MCNetwork]

Speed of the the approval is never the issue. Receiving an approval within 5 minutes versus 48 hours won't make or break the deal as long as you know how to manage the merchant's expectations. And if an "A" paper candidate is in such a dire rush, then he's probably not really "A" paper anyway...

[CraaaCraaa Radio]

Carl,

They see you as "difficult" because of the tighter underwriting guidelines( and fewer approvals ) because you are A "plus"paper. Not the difficulty of sending the application ( once you get everything uploaded you hit send...just type in different funders email address). Or your CRM system sends it out with a hit of a button...you just choose which button

Tighter guidelines and more stips -=A paper-=better rates.
( and that's the way it should be)

And again for those who didn't see ( standard applications with no company name on it= more chances for backdooring.)That application will be passed around like candy to kids at a carnival, everyone claiming its theirs...I've seen applications where it was clear that someone chopped off the top of the application and photoshop their company name on it or just patched together photocopied it).

I have a compliance rule that we always get a new application with our company name on it, even if the other was blank and dated within 30 days. No one should ever allow noncompany specific application, nondifferrencieted...it opens up a new can of worms..people pulling credit all over the place.



Fishing in the wrong pond


The benefit of doing business with your company and companies like yours is getting the A-plus paper great rates and safety of knowing you are not being backdoored.

There will be low approval ratios and lower submissions,...smaller market of people who are just below banking grade but slightly above mca, who actually want/need money.

They are also harder to close because they are not "desperate" and can go anywhere they choose..."Close" meaning get the initial documents in and application ( thats the hard part)

which is why some salespeople "pot shi*" saying" i closed so and so much a/b paper", its way harder to do ...and sometimes not worth it

This thread is not strictly about Breakout, it was created to help users/members know what banks and or lenders are still available via the funders directory of debanked. I am quite sure that Breakout will continue to fund and will continue to offer stellar programs to borrowers and the Iso's that submit. Me saying hard to get approvals doesn't equate to they are not a good lender. It means call breakout speak to the ISO department and learn the product. That should be done with all lenders that are signed up. How can you be competitive if you don't know the ins and outs of the financial product.

[Karen37a]

This thread is not strictly about Breakout, it was created to help users/members know what banks and or lenders are still available via the funders directory of debanked. I am quite sure that Breakout will continue to fund and will continue to offer stellar programs to borrowers and the Iso's that submit. Me saying hard to get approvals doesn't equate to they are not a good lender. It means call breakout speak to the ISO department and learn the product. That should be done with all lenders that are signed up. How can you be competitive if you don't know the ins and outs of the financial product.

World of MCA ....Carl asked a question. I answered it.

People offered solutions and commentary. I am stating what I know first hand from my perspective in regards to the specific comments and solutions that were offered...some are off target

That has nothing to do with you posting a helpful list of Funders and a general description of what you think they specialize in...and its not an exact science. You were posting information to be helpful.

[Cfairbank]

Carl,

They see you as "difficult" because of the tighter underwriting guidelines( and fewer approvals ) because you are A "plus"paper. Not the difficulty of sending the application

The benefit of doing business with your company and companies like yours is getting the A-plus paper great rates and safety of knowing you are not being backdoored.

This was the original point I was trying to address — and I'll say it again: we do not ONLY fund A+ paper or "low risk" paper as viewed through the eyes of a broker. You are right, the product our ISO’s, who don’t do much volume with us and, therefore, don't look for the the characteristics that allow us to "de-risk" a customer, only see us as an A+ shop. But we do leverage multiple de-risking strategies that may be completely irrelevant to standard MCA underwriting, but allow us to take a customer you view high risk (B or C) be able to make that customer a "near prime" risk and approve with A-paper pricing. But we don’t just offer “one” product, and through our hybrid product, for example, we can fund a credit profile many would view as high risk, but we have structured the product in such a way that we are de-risking our position sufficiently to provide better rates and an optimized financing structure than they could get elsewhere.

Fishing in the wrong pond

Agreed, brokers are not, nor should they be, our primary source or focus for client acquisition. But our top brokers are fantastic partners and we have no plans to stop funding with brokers.

And again for those who didn't see ( standard applications with no company name on it= more chances for backdooring.)That application will be passed around like candy to kids at a carnival, everyone claiming its theirs...I've seen applications where it was clear that someone chopped off the top of the application and photoshop their company name on it or just patched together photocopied it).

Who said standard app?? Use any app you want and name the fields whatever you want and place them wherever you want on the app. Ultimately, as long a human can decipher something and that something isn't a complete, one-time outlier, a computer, leveraging so many more datapoints, can do it and do it better... and better and better with each accurate result. While I won't get into our internal methodologies, google search for a simple ML diagram and you should be able to see at a very high level how a full feedback loop works and why it is so powerful... and why humans don't stand a chance of beating it.

[Karen37a]

This was the original point I was trying to address — and I'll say it again: we do not ONLY fund A+ paper or "low risk" paper as viewed through the eyes of a broker. You are right, the product our ISO’s, who don’t do much volume with us and, therefore, don't look for the the characteristics that allow us to "de-risk" a customer, only see us as an A+ shop. But we do leverage multiple de-risking strategies that may be completely irrelevant to standard MCA underwriting, but allow us to take a customer you view high risk (B or C) be able to make that customer a "near prime" risk and approve with A-paper pricing. But we don’t just offer “one” product, and through our hybrid product, for example, we can fund a credit profile many would view as high risk, but we have structured the product in such a way that we are de-risking our position sufficiently to provide better rates and an optimized financing structure than they could get elsewhere.



Agreed, brokers are not, nor should they be, our primary source or focus for client acquisition. But our top brokers are fantastic partners and we have no plans to stop funding with brokers.



Who said standard app?? Use any app you want and name the fields whatever you want and place them wherever you want on the app. Ultimately, as long a human can decipher something and that something isn't a complete, one-time outlier, a computer, leveraging so many more datapoints, can do it and do it better... and better and better with each accurate result. While I won't get into our internal methodologies, google search for a simple ML diagram and you should be able to see at a very high level how a full feedback loop works and why it is so powerful... and why humans don't stand a chance of beating it.

I am not going to debate this . Like I debated the regulations issues, certain a paper collapsing before they actually did.

I do have a computer science degree and fully understand ocr ...even quant strategies. ( computers dont have a chance against a trained sales force of brokers live, or underwrting)

in plain english......reading a pdf or application quickly is of no use to salespeople or Isos or closers, It doesnt help in anyway.nor computer generated algorithm approvals because there i s no way that it isnt going to be eventually manually approved....if you did there would be more defaults.

Gl with it.

[Cfairbank]

Speed of the the approval is never the issue. Receiving an approval within 5 minutes versus 48 hours won't make or break the deal as long as you know how to manage the merchant's expectations. And if an "A" paper candidate is in such a dire rush, then he's probably not really "A" paper anyway...

And there is the answer -- why do folks love OnDeck's online checkout? I know how much value this has for lenders and marketplaces, but if folks don't work with us because they don't want to waste time because of our approval ratio with them, I would have thought a frictionless process (and highly accurate with no impact on customer) would be an attractive solution for the brokers that do have very low approval rates with us.

But CCR is right, this not a breakout thread, so no need to keep debating Breakout -- I provided the context I wanted and, more importantly, posed a question to "fix" the main complaint posed in this thread (and I am candidly shocked with the full fledged skepticism, hence going further off topic): determining how a frictionless approval/denial process would be valued by brokers

[Karen37a]

When computers come up with a "lie detector" test, based off their fingerprint on the application... that will help.

Unsecured Cash advances and Unsecured Loans are a beast.

Live brokers, Live isos, live underwriting,live merchant funding calls ..( mini interrogations ).protect the downside.

You or anyone speeding up your processing ( 24 hours ) isnt going to get you more quality applications from brokers/ isos/ or anyone.


last comment on this post

[Cfairbank]

I am not going to debate this . Like I debated the regulations issues, certain a paper collapsing before they actually did.

I do have a computer science degree and fully understand ocr ...even quant strategies. ( computers dont have a chance against a trained sales force of brokers live, or underwrting)

in plain english......reading a pdf or application quickly is of no use to salespeople or Isos or closers, It doesnt help in anyway.nor computer generated algorithm approvals because there i s no way that it isnt going to be eventually manually approved....if you did there would be more defaults.

Gl with it.

And now I remember why I stayed away from these boards. Unnecessary insults, "absolute truths" based on uninformed information that makes arguments pointless. One of my favorite quotes by mark twain: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

[CraaaCraaa Radio]

World of MCA ....Carl asked a question. I answered it.

People offered solutions and commentary. I am stating what I know first hand from my perspective in regards to the specific comments and solutions that were offered...some are off target

That has nothing to do with you posting a helpful list of Funders and a general description of what you think they specialize in...and its not an exact science. You were posting information to be helpful.

That's all it's about helping your fellow brethren

[abfunders]

And now I remember why I stayed away from these boards. Unnecessary insults, "absolute truths" based on uninformed information that makes arguments pointless. One of my favorite quotes by mark twain: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

Carl, QuarterSpot is a good example of what you are probably looking for.
Online form to fill out some of the details from our app.
You don't want an entire app. You just want the basic details for a soft offer. Put in the name, DOB, SSN of merchant for soft pull and upload the app. Maybe the EIN to double-check if it's been submitted recently. Perhaps you'll need to put something about how current balances work to prevent us from sending you clients who have recently stacked.

Upload the bank statements, and you have your automated answer? Does that make sense?

You don't need OCR for that. Just the broker to be able to read the chicken-scratch.

[HDF]

I guess to actually answer Carl's question and thesis, my answer would be heck-yes. Yes, I think that instant feedback is a great thing if they deliver (I don't know the current technology available -as most don't either- of course).

It does get very frustrating thinking that you've checked all the right buttons and boxes with a funder/lender only to get the "declined" email 6 hours later for something like having 4 deposits in a month rather than the minimum of 5 etc. Especially if you are not shotgunning files all over the street, which you shouldn't be. So yes, there is value here if you want to try to do business with Breakout or anyone else funding who might have a similar approach at some point.

And honestly, it is a smart move for them because they will be getting a heck of a lot of first looks at mostly suitable files due to the ease of use and hopefully educating brokers and referral partners on it.

[Michael I]

Regarding break out. First off I am big fan as they do give some solid approvals. The fact that are picky I am fine with as long as they do not start bothering me like some funders with closing percentage and the such.
Carl I did not experience any long wait time for answers on approvals or declines from you.The one big issue that holds back funding some deals is the amount of stips you require. When you give a 24 month monthly payments merchants will play ball ,however I had merchants that I offered your product or pay 6% more with BFS and barely any stips(core business under 100k) and the merchant went with the higher factor .
2 years ago it was a big complaint on BFS but they really lowered stips and something you should look into.

[CraaaCraaa Radio]

Regarding break out. First off I am big fan as they do give some solid approvals. The fact that are picky I am fine with as long as they do not start bothering me like some funders with closing percentage and the such.
Carl I did not experience any long wait time for answers on approvals or declines from you.The one big issue that holds back funding some deals is the amount of stips you require. When you give a 24 month monthly payments merchants will play ball ,however I had merchants that I offered your product or pay 6% more with BFS and barely any stips(core business under 100k) and the merchant went with the higher factor .
2 years ago it was a big complaint on BFS but they really lowered stips and something you should look into.

I can relate with BFS. Alec Glazier & Billy Rosenberg are my links at BFS. They see a lot of our paper and help us, stps are minimal and your at the funding gate waiting for a notification

[WhoisKingsley]

Yes. If this type of feature is available (who some have) direct to merchant when applying, it should be available to those who “resell”. Based on future receivables - financial only offer. A true advance offer which from the very beginning was supposed to be based off the receivables then UW. Why? Resources ain’t cheap. No matter how many algorithms are built into a system a human eye/brain will always be needed .

Now with that being said - analyzing PDF bank statements via API or upload is not something that is brand new or far off. I think there are a lot more people in this space that are not aren't acquainted with the types of "software" concepts that are/were being built around this space. Still one of the biggest issues that arise with any type of innovation is having the minds support it while it's in motion.

[WhoisKingsley]

I agree. And even if it could be done thru ocr software.( which it cant for the reasons above ) Standard application forms create more opportunities for backdooring Also those initial algorithms are just a pre pre pre determining factor to see if a file moves on to stage 2...more underwriting. Or stage 3..more underwriting.


The speed of approvals of deals (that someone wants) is not the main concern in this industry..you send in docs, an application and within a few hours or 24 hours you get approved; funded within another 24 hours. Nor documents.

Or you get denied.

The Key is to getting a file that the Funder likes( or wants to approve)...not how quick they scan their documents once you give it to them

Getting the clients to SEND the documents thru numerous phone calls ...convincing the client to do business with you is the key ( and fitting a certain underwriting guideline with the right or best funder) You cant force the merchant to speed up his end ( sending docs and stips) no matter how hard we try.


You can never take the human element out of sales ...or underwriting.

Even the best underwriting caused massive defaults for A paper

Standard application forms create more opportunities for backdooring ?!? I call BS. CAN Capital had a standard app. I didn’t hear the work “backdooring” until people started creating their own applications and so on. Standard applications for anything (repeat ANY THING) that you go into contract to has to be a certain way. That’s why it’s a reseller contract and the broker doesn’t own the merchant account (for some funders- in a good way not the bad ones- hear me out here) If a Broker had to keep organized and liable for anymore they are already responsible for … no offense but how many of ya’ll live with your mom? Have roommates? Airbnb? and ya’ll are scared of regulation?

The speed of approvals of deals (that someone wants) is not the main concern in this industry.
So why tf does everyone have “fast approvals” on their website? You mean to tell me you have over 20 ISOs under you and they don’t haunt you sun up to sun down (I am guessing - To be an ISO Manager is a full time job- submissions is another… then communicating it all…)

[WhoisKingsley]

Some Funders or ISO"s think you can replace good sales people just like that. But that is far from the truth and at times it's because the owners put people in positions that make and take things personal and always have an agenda. If your not hands on to know what is going on in your organization than you will take several losses!!! Starting with your grade A employees

PREACH! okay back to the subject.

[WhoisKingsley]

I am not going to debate this . Like I debated the regulations issues, certain a paper collapsing before they actually did.

I do have a computer science degree and fully understand ocr ...even quant strategies. ( computers dont have a chance against a trained sales force of brokers live, or underwrting)

in plain english......reading a pdf or application quickly is of no use to salespeople or Isos or closers, It doesnt help in anyway.nor computer generated algorithm approvals because there i s no way that it isnt going to be eventually manually approved....if you did there would be more defaults.

Gl with it.

Our industry is just like any other and this needs to be understood and the ignorance that is looked at in your point of view is only damaging to your business whether you like it or not.

The only difference are those industries have already taken out the human “sales” and replaced it with “brands” and a true online presence and the ability to compete AND aren’t afraid to compete even though many of them are brokers and work with the same direct “vendors”.

Take auto insurance with all of the online apps etc. and then your smaller brokers that also go to those larger direct ones, the smaller bad credit kinds- then you have your walk in local guys that shop your credit to hell. 10 years ago I was going to a local person and using anything I could to get a discount! Now, I go online- shop- chose- print my sh*t, put it in my car and I'm driving.

Yes, Brenda at auto insurance world is still in business with her "residual accounts" and special agreements with certain auto insurance companies for the people she services that work for certain corporations, hospitals... etc. Are you putting the puzzle pieces together here? It will be the same thing - with some major partnerships and drastic application and UW changes - this is the future.

Carl is right in many ways and we have had many (many) convos about every serious industry topic and there is not one aspect that he has/is not researching and at the end of the day it's about the consumer and their experience. BUT to turn it around- the Broker is the largest market that brings in many direct sales for the funders- so how is our experience then in turn our experience we provide to them? and after they are funder? and so on... and so on.

The biggest issue we have is our growth in both need, tech - but the limited amount of minds/hands in the right places.

[Karen37a]

Standard application forms create more opportunities for backdooring ?!? I call BS.

I didnt read that far past this first comment.

Many people caught people backdooring because they asked for the original application to be produced. ...if it was standard, how would you prove it was yours. ( this is common street- smart
business sense)
And maybe you are talking about a day long gone...before people started creating 10 companies calling themselves a Direct Funder when they were not and stacking as much as they are, and purposeful defaults etc....those days are gone


And maybe can capitals standard app and other things conributed to their temporary demise ( not going to explain how)

Also certain Funders ( who are saying these things )have commented on these boards about how they saw an iso who normally does business with thems application being submitted by someone else ...( again I memorize things, blessing, and a curse)

you are 100 % wrong and shortly we will not have to converse about these things.

Think what you will...or look it up

Like the show undercover boss, there are things you cant see or discover unless you are thrown deep into the mix.When people say certain things ..i know they did not produce a lot of documents. You have to step back and accept the wisdom of those who actually did it NOt debate theories that are not battle tested...or comment away.

There is no way for me to explain or convince anyone with out coming across as arrogant and condescending ( because you have to have lived it to see )... I will not answer going forward.

[Karen37a]

The exact opposite should happen.

Everyone should have their own semi-unique application...maybe partially different and when a deal Funds... The Funder pays the company whose name is on the application.

( that will force anyone who snagged a deal to call the merchant and get a new application sent in, or waste your time sending in a deal for someone else to be paid)
no white label or white label of white label of iso deals being re-routed...or deals being closed off the back end.

( this will ruin some peoples only marketing plan so I am sure this will not be a popular idea,)

I heard the same exact words and phrases from some of you and I knew you were talking to each other so do not think I ever trusted you, and I was right.( a few of you lost a lot of money too backing the wrong horse) ...all trying to figure out some unique identifier to get an edge...save the attacks.

Sales are sales...pick up the phone

** new rules. I will not chat with people who cant close 6-7 deals personally themselves, in one month...min 150k-200k or 2-5 million plus team/ them being a salesperson

[RickyR3712]

You have to know what to send to breakout.First off do not expect more than 5% commission. However do expect a great product with great people.I do agree with some of the above that stips is a big issue and why they can not be a go to lender for the standard daily 12 month 1.30.

[Fundyman]

YOU DO NOT SEND TO QUARTERSPOT A TRUE P2P LENDER




QUARTERSPOT GIVES AVERAGE 200% of Revenue

IF Ondeck and Breakout is all you have as an arsenal we need to help you Snapper

FYI: Ondeck what a joke. Snap has beaten Ondeck offers with ease

I'm sure this thread is way past my reply, but I just funded with Quarterspot last week, and they have at least 3 submissions from me since. My brain still does think commissions 1st.

[Cfairbank]

You have to know what to send to breakout.First off do not expect more than 5% commission. However do expect a great product with great people.I do agree with some of the above that stips is a big issue and why they can not be a go to lender for the standard daily 12 month 1.30.

Regarding break out. First off I am big fan as they do give some solid approvals. The fact that are picky I am fine with as long as they do not start bothering me like some funders with closing percentage and the such.
Carl I did not experience any long wait time for answers on approvals or declines from you.The one big issue that holds back funding some deals is the amount of stips you require. When you give a 24 month monthly payments merchants will play ball ,however I had merchants that I offered your product or pay 6% more with BFS and barely any stips(core business under 100k) and the merchant went with the higher factor .
2 years ago it was a big complaint on BFS but they really lowered stips and something you should look into.

Again, two very helpful (and in my mind, completely accurate complaints) that we have internalized and, have been working to develop, in addition to other applications, ways to address internally (and completely behind the scenes) but on a much more scalable level via the applicability of advanced forms of technology. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are exogenous factors that lead to extreme, nearly all or nothing, results, which is a lenders nightmare -- see IOUs latest filing), that we are trying to use statistical provabilities via advanced ML to better "capture" those "so called" exogenous factors, and make them more easily identifiable and quantifiable, through different forms of advanced technology; but until we do, we will have a hard time being that "simple, 12 1.30x lender." But "little victories" will make your request possible near term, and once we have rolled out the proper applications of our technology, OR offer "seamless" application of increased security, to eliminate best quantify the "all or nothings",my hope os we can take the bulk of your easy 1.3 over 12 months and make approval much simpler, with less stips, and much more attractive approvals than a 12 month 1.3 all-in, immediately, with less work on the end of the broker and the merchant.

[CraaaCraaa Radio]

I'm sure this thread is way past my reply, but I just funded with Quarterspot last week, and they have at least 3 submissions from me since. My brain still does think commissions 1st.

Now your learning, dont worry we will have your outsource list stellar in no time Fundy